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Sindarin Conversation Workshop

Re: Sindarin Conversation Workshop

PostAuthor: Eryniel » Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:55 am

Gee I hope you will be feeling better soon, Tuilinde.

To continue...
Lúthien and I have tried to say the little dwarves song, but we came to the conclusion that Aran might be right and it's a bit too much of a tongue twister for a beginner's workshop.
Lúthien reminded me of my little finger poem and thought that that might work well. However, we have no music to it and the first and last stanza were of different meters. So I tried adjusting the rhythm. It now goes like this:

Tiro leben lebir e-gam
sui sammath en nothrim vi tham.
gonodo lebir gîn phain fair
thiar sui genedril na chair.

atheg am maethad
emig an nastad
honeg ened orn
nethig gâr ringorn
gwinig an teliad.

Edro paur, tiro lebir ben
min, tad neledh, canad, leben.
tiro leben lebir e-gam
sui sammath en nothrim vi tham.



English version:
Look, five fingers of the hand
like family rooms in the hall/house.
count all your fingers on the left hand
They seem like a mirror to the right hand.

little father is for handling
little mother is for pointing
little brother is the tallest one
little sister has a ring on
little baby is for playing.

open the fist, look at all the fingers
one, two, three, four, five.
Look, five fingers of the hand
like family rooms in the hall/house.

What do you think?


Also, we are still looking for some more, very simple dialogues. Thank you Aran for the corrections of the first one. Please stay as diligent. :)

One idea for a dialogue is two elves meet in the forest. They greet each other, ask where the other one is going, then say goodbye.

Guilin: "Mae govannen, Lindir."
Lindir: "Mae govannen mellon nîn."
Guilin: "Padag nan mbâr gîn?"
Lindir: "Ma. Padam ven thent."
Guilin: "Reviam nan amrûn, na Thranduil na Daur-nu-Fuin"
Lindir: "Lend vaer, Guilin. Men gîn haeron."
Guilin:"Cuio vae, Lindir!"

To be continued...
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Re: Sindarin Conversation Workshop

PostAuthor: findegil » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:00 pm

A few queries and/or suggestions:

lebir gîn phain fair


In Sindarin the noun fair/feir means 'a mortal'. The Sindarin counterpart of Noldorin foeir 'right hand' would probably be *fuir (Q forya).

sui genedril


sui cenedril, otherwise it seems inconsistent with sui sammath.

gwinig an teliad


Rather a theliad, I think (cf. a Pherhael)

Edro paur


Edro baur, like lasto beth ?

lebir ben


I don't understand ben. Shouldn't 'all [the] fingers' be lebir bain?

Guilin: "Padag nan mbâr gîn?"


...na·mbar gîn (considering e·mbar nín in UT:40)

Lindir: "Ma. Padam ven thent."


The interjection ma is glossed as an expression of enthusiasm ("good! excellent! that's right"), hardly the equivalent of a mere neutral yes.

Guilin: "Reviam

Reniam (remember viewtopic.php?f=8&t=118&start=20#p910 ? :-) )

nan amrûn


n'amrûn or perhaps an amrûn?
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Re: Sindarin Conversation Workshop

PostAuthor: Lúthien » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:34 pm

Wow, thanks all! This is coming together nicely!
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Re: Sindarin Conversation Workshop

PostAuthor: Eryniel » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:59 am

Thank you findegil for your reply. We do want to get it right.

In Sindarin the noun fair/feir means 'a mortal'. The Sindarin counterpart of Noldorin foeir 'right hand' would probably be *fuir (Q forya).

After consulting the Ethymologies itself, I tend to just change that completely and exchange the left and right hand to harvo/forvo. That would have the nice effect that it also means left/right side, but it would also change the rhythm, so I would need to reconsider the sentences as such. So I came up with just saying: Count your fingers on the left hand.... without the "all" and hoping I can get away with thiar only using one syllable.

sui cenedril...

yes, you are right of course.

..a theliad

DOH, changed.

Edro baur, like lasto beth ?

Hmm. then what about 'pedo mellon a minno' from the moria gate? Seems this one is not all that clear.

Shouldn't 'all [the] fingers' be lebir bain?

Yes, they should... I'll have to think on that one, the rhyme is busted ;)
I am thinking of either: Edro paur gîn, tiro, athgen - Open your fist, look, (it is) easily seen
or: Gonodo lebir, ann a then - Count the fingers, long and short
to make it rhyme with the next line. What do you think?

So this is the changed nursery ryhme:

Tiro leben lebir e-gam
sui sammath en nothrim vi tham.
gonodo lebir gîn harvo
thiar sui cenedril na forvo.

atheg am maethad
emig an nastad
honeg ened orn
nethig gâr ringorn
gwinig an theliad.

Edro baur, tiro, athgen:
min, tad neledh, canad, leben.
tiro leben lebir e-gam
sui sammath en nothrim vi tham.


English version:
Look, five fingers of the hand
like family rooms in the hall/house.
count all your fingers on the left hand
They seem like a mirror to the right hand.

little father is for handling
little mother is for pointing
little brother is the tallest one
little sister has a ring on
little baby is for playing.

open the fist, look, it is easily seen:
one, two, three, four, five.
Look, five fingers of the hand
like family rooms in the hall/house.
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Re: Sindarin Conversation Workshop

PostAuthor: Eryniel » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:16 am

Now for the dialogue...

I just realized I never gave the english version of it. My apologies.

Here it is:
Guilin: "Well met, Lindir."
Lindir: "Well met my friend."
Guilin: "Are you walking home?"
Lindir: "Yes. I am walking the short road."
Guilin: "I wander eastward (towards the east), to Thranduil at Mirkwood."
Lindir: "A good journey, Guilin. Your road is far."
Guilin:"Fare well, Lindir!"

...na·mbar gîn (considering e·mbar nín in UT:40)

Hm. I thought nan, meaning to, towards, at, would be causing lenition, whereas en would cause mixed mutation. Am I wrong?

The interjection ma is glossed as an expression of enthusiasm

Typo. I meant to use the Mae. that is in Pedin Edhellen.

n'amrûn or perhaps an amrûn?

Again, I was under the impression of lenition, so why would the nan be shortened?

Reniam (remember viewtopic.php?f=8&t=118&start=20#p910 ?)

Yes, I remember, but this was just a case of brainfade.... I meant I, not we... And that was not the only sentence... Sighs.

So this I have now:

Guilin: "Mae govannen, Lindir."
Lindir: "Mae govannen mellon nîn."
Guilin: "Padag na mbar gîn?"
Lindir: "Mae. Padon ven thent."
Guilin: "Revion n' amrûn, na Thranduil na Daur-nu-Fuin"
Lindir: "Lend vaer, Guilin. Men gîn haeron."
Guilin:"Cuio vae, Lindir!"
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Re: Sindarin Conversation Workshop[edro baur]

PostAuthor: findegil » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:37 pm

Edro baur, like lasto beth ?

Hmm. then what about 'pedo mellon a minno' from the moria gate? Seems this one is not all that clear.


An old favourite, this one :-). As Sindarin goes, the rule seems pretty clear to me: an object is mutated immediately after its verb (PE 17:46). But obviously the sentence pedo mellon a minno presents a special case, where mellon doesn't refer to a person but means 'the word (= the sound combination) "mellon"'; no doubt a good reason for making an exception.

So if edro is to be used as a transitive verb with paur as its object, I believe it must be edro baur. Without mutation paur would be interpreted as the subject ('open, fist!'), just like calad and morn in Lacho calad! Drego morn! 'flame, light! flee, night!' (UT:65)
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Re: Sindarin Conversation Workshop[dialogue]

PostAuthor: findegil » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:21 pm

...na·mbar gîn (considering e·mbar nín in UT:40)

Hm. I thought nan, meaning to, towards, at, would be causing lenition, whereas en would cause mixed mutation. Am I wrong?

n'amrûn or perhaps an amrûn?

Again, I was under the impression of lenition, so why would the nan be shortened?


As PE 17:147 s.v. ANA/NÂ has it, Sindarin for 'to, towards, at' is na "with vocalic [= soft] mutation. before vowel n' ", whereas na(n) with nasal mutation means '(provided) with', 'possessing'. Accordingly, 'to [the] home' will be na·mbâr, and 'to your home' na·mbar gîn (with shortening of the -â- before a stressed pronoun, as shown by e·mbar nín). Thus also n'amrûn 'towards [the] east' from na + amrûn.

Reniam (remember viewtopic.php?f=8&t=118&start=20#p910 ?)

Yes, I remember, but this was just a case of brainfade.... I meant I, not we...


OK, but I must insist on Reni- . The Noldorin rhenio (Etym. s.v. RAM-) was once thought to be a typo for **rhevio and was therefore Sindarized to **revia- (e.g. in Hiswelóke), but this assumption has proved unfounded.
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Re: Sindarin Conversation Workshop

PostAuthor: Eryniel » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:46 pm

As PE 17:147 s.v. ANA/NÂ has it, Sindarin for 'to, towards, at' is na "with vocalic [= soft] mutation. before vowel n' ", whereas na(n) with nasal mutation means '(provided) with', 'possessing'. Accordingly, 'to [the] home' will be na·mbâr, and 'to your home' na·mbar gîn (with shortening of the -â- before a stressed pronoun, as shown by e·mbar nín). Thus also n'amrûn 'towards [the] east' from na + amrûn.


Ahh, PE17.. Looks like I need to update my useful table I made... thank you, changed :)

OK, but I must insist on Reni- . The Noldorin rhenio (Etym. s.v. RAM-) was once thought to be a typo for **rhevio and was therefore Sindarized to **revia- (e.g. in Hiswelóke), but this assumption has proved unfounded.

Would you have some material on that? Not that I don't trust you, but we would need this for the dictionary as well.
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Re: Sindarin Conversation Workshop

PostAuthor: Aran » Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:17 am

Men gîn haeron

Intransitive verbs and predicative adjectives seem to precede the subject in Sindarin. Also, inanimates seem to add the definite article with a demonstrative pronoun. Hence the usual way to formulate it would probably be *Haeron i ven gîn.

Hm. I thought nan, meaning to, towards, at, would be causing lenition, whereas en would cause mixed mutation. Am I wrong?

There might be a *nan causing mixed mutation which consists out of na and the definite article, but it's unattested.

Would you have some material on that? Not that I don't trust you, but we would need this for the dictionary as well.

It was posted by me on sindict, but now that Didier has deleted the archives the link given above leads nowhere. The deal is that Tolkien just writes rhenio which should be argument enough; the hypercorrection to **revia is based on the fact that the root is RAM- and the presupposition that m ought to be lenited. But now that we find amya > anya > ein- in PE17:163, we see that -mj- > -nj- happens before lenition takes place. There is also the same sound shift in Celtic.
I would hope that it's in the wordlists already since I made the change there...
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Re: Sindarin Conversation Workshop

PostAuthor: Eryniel » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:34 am

Here is the update:

Guilin: "Mae govannen, Lindir."
Lindir: "Mae govannen mellon nîn."
Guilin: "Padag na mbar gîn?"
Lindir: "Mae. Padon ven thent."
Guilin: "Renion n' amrûn, na Thranduil na Daur-nu-Fuin"
Lindir: "Lend vaer, Guilin. Haeron i ven gîn."
Guilin:"Cuio vae, Lindir!"


Guilin: "Well met, Lindir."
Lindir: "Well met my friend."
Guilin: "Are you walking home?"
Lindir: "Yes. I am walking the short road."
Guilin: "I wander eastward (towards the east), to Thranduil at Mirkwood."
Lindir: "A good journey, Guilin. Your road is far."
Guilin:"Fare well, Lindir!"
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