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Sindarin Conversation Workshop

Sindarin Conversation Workshop

PostAuthor: Tuilinde » Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:30 am

OK folks, this topic is for the development of ideas for the Workshop at Return of the Ring next August.

The ideas need to be family friendly - in other words things that children from nine upwards can learn to say and use with their family and friends - though we can put in some harder stuff as well. But we're not dealing with grammar, just teaching them some things they can say, and giving them some vocabulary which they can drop into prepared sentences.
We'll teach them greetings and introductions and how to say who they are and where they come from, and then go on to other stuff.
Something like - "I walked in the forest and saw some . . . . . . ." deer, birds, wolves, elves, etc.
Or "I want some food, have you got any . . . . . ." bread, fruit, honey, etc.

It's perfectly fine to be a bit silly! We want them to have a laugh as well!
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Re: Sindarin Conversation Workshop

PostAuthor: Eryniel » Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:35 am

Sounds great Tuilinde,
There are lots of little conversations like that in Thorsten's course. Since you are doing the same thing in Quenya, how about doing the same conversation in both langages? I think that could be pretty interesting.

A very spontaneous idea would be to make something like this: Pretend you will be travelling to Middle-Earth and to be prepared you give to all participants a little guide...

Small Travel Dictionary - Sindarin Edition

Greetings
Hello (Well met)
How are you?
Fine
What is your name?
My name is...
Where do you live?
I live in...
This is my friend.
This is my wife.
I had a good time.
Good bye (Fare well)

Directions
Where is the resting place?
Go straight ahead.
Turn left.
Turn right.
Take me to this address, please.
Stop here.

Shopping
What would you like?
Can I help you?
I would like this.
What clothing is more beautiful?
I would like bread.
Can I have this book, please?

Numbers
(a list of known numbers)

Dining Out
Where is a good restaurant (eating place)?
I would like something to drink.
Do you have roots (vegetarian)?
Do you have pipe-weed?
Would you give me bread, please?
I would like to drink tea.
Give me cake please.

Basic Phrases
Thank you.
My pleasure.
Yes.
No.
I'm sorry.
I don't speak Elvish.
Do you speak Elvish?
Speak more slowly, please.
Can you help me please?
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Re: Sindarin Conversation Workshop

PostAuthor: Eryniel » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:51 am

Is there any news on this one, Tuilinde?
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Re: Sindarin Conversation Workshop

PostAuthor: Tuilinde » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:37 pm

Sorry, Eryniel,

I've been frantically busy since I got back on Tuesday, and had to go to a funeral of a friend yesterday, which does not encourage one to want to work on other things.

However, I did begin some work on the Quenya conversation while I was away - I'll try to post my ideas in the next two days.

I like your list - I think we should also have handouts with some extra vocabulary and a list of the best / most reliable / still active websites. As well as our own flyers, of course!!
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Re: Sindarin Conversation Workshop

PostAuthor: Tuilinde » Mon May 14, 2012 12:54 pm

In response to an email about booklets - yes I'm preparing one for the Quenya Workshop - and there'll be some optional vocabulary lists together with URLs of reliable language websites / forums.

There's no need to pass anything by Thorsten - he said, "Help yourself, go ahead." or words to that effect. If we make sure his site is on the booklet, with thanks, that will be adequate.
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Re: Sindarin Conversation Workshop

PostAuthor: Lúthien » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:36 pm

Eryniel and I discussed the workshop in the past weeks, and we thought out a basic form of how it could be done, taking the (probable) age and level of the participants into account. The level will most likely be "absolute beginners", and for the age it's best to prepare for "late elementary school" because I think it is easier to adapt it improvising to a higher level than the other way around.

First of all, I think that it is necessary to have the participants to be as active as possible. This way it's more interesting for them, and it is probably also easier to handle for someone with no didactic skills such as myself. This rules out a static "class-teacher approach" in which words and sentences are being rote-memorised by the class.
I'd be all for a form in which the participants engage in exercising small dialogues (let's say in couples) that can then be presented to the group.

But of course there does need to be some form of central introduction: most likely, the participants will have absolutely no idea what Sindarin is, or what it sounds like. Or in any case, that is the scenario that we should prepare for: father, mother and three children walking around on the ROTR, and Jane (11 years old) pointing to the Sindarin workshop in the ROTR program leaflet saying: "Please mommy, daddy, can we do that? I would love to learn to speak elvish!" - to which the rest of the family might agree. Thus, the five of them enter our little class. Maybe Mom and Dad have read LOTR and / or seen the PJ movies but I doubt that even one word has stuck in their memories.

So: the starting point is that they know nothing at all, but are more or less enthusiastic and curious.

This is what we have in mind:

- start out with a very short introduction: what is Sindarin, and what are we going to do with it today?
- using images / drawings of all the individual words that are going to be used; show them one after the other, while pronouncing the Sindarin name (the Sindarin word is also shown)
- when all drawings have been shown: go through them at random, a couple of times, and let the whole group pronounce the words. Correct as necessary.
- using those words, write down / show a basic dialogue down on the whiteboard (or whatever we have available - blackboard, beamer, overhead projector, flip-over ...? ) in Sindarin, phonetic Sindarin and English. It will be something comparable to what Thorsten Renk has in Chapter 1 of Pedin Edhellen.
According to the level of the group, give a (very) basic explanation of the grammatical role of the words involved, using English equivalent examples (to meet -> met vs. covad- -> govannen, im -> I / NOT im -> I'm, etcetera)
- make the group divide into couples, assigning a role of the dialogue to every person. Give them a few minutes to practice between them, and then let all 'groups' try the dialogue out loud. Help / correct if necessary
- just as before, present the additional words used in the song (see below) using drawings
- present the lyrics of the song in Sindarin, phonetic Sindarin and English. Read out aloud a couple of times, and if we do manage to create a song out of it, sing it out
- line by line, have the group repeat it singing. If they do get it, let them sing the whole thing.
- at the end, give them the booklet (we're preparing a booklet with phrases and examples, to take home with them)

We can also use the "Ten Little Dwarves" song, but Eryniel and I felt that it's maybe a bit difficult to pronounce for beginners. Eryniel once wrote a little nursery rhyme using the words for one to five, and also the finger-names. I think that's easier to pronounce for the intended audience but it needs some more work to get it in a fixed meter and rhyme.

We're now working out the dialogue and the song; will keep you all posted as we progress!
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Re: Sindarin Conversation Workshop

PostAuthor: Tuilinde » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:06 am

That sounds fine, and is flexible enough to be adapted once we see who turns up and how they get on.

I'm aiming to do mine slightly differently - but that is all to the good if anyone attends both, that they will have variety in structure - but also to have people using the phrases in twos and threes and being active about it.
They'll be more relaxed if they're all talking together and no-one is listening to their first attempts. I may go through my booklet and then encourage them to try and put a little conversation together at the end.
A lot will depend on time and numbers.

If you're going to want any tech stuff - low (flipchart & pens) or high(projector & screen) - make sure Meggy knows as soon as possible so she can alert the tech bods.

This is beginning to sound good fun!
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Re: Sindarin Conversation Workshop

PostAuthor: Lúthien » Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:01 pm

Eryniel and I put together a dialogue to use for the workshop. It's about the same level as Thorsten Renk's first lesson.
We decided to use other persons as Aragorn and Arwen, and settled on Finrod and Andreth (as in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth from HoME vol. X, Morgoth's Ring).


Andreth: Nice meeting you (well met)!
Finrod: Greetings! Are you a mortal woman?  
Andreth: Yes, I am. My name is Andreth.
Finrod: I am Finrod, king of the Elves.
Andreth: My home is in the forest. Where do you live (where is your house)?
Finrod: My house is called Nargothrond.
Andreth: Thank you for the / our conversation.
Finrod: it is my pleasure. Live well!
Andreth: live well!

Andreth: Mae govannen!
Finrod: Suilad! Ech adaneth?
Andreth: Ma. Andreth i eneth nîn.
Finrod: Im Finrod, aran in Edhil.
Andreth: I mbâr nîn mi dawar. Man sad i adab lîn?
Finrod: Adab nîn estannen Nargothrond.
Andreth: Le hannon an i athrabeth / an i athrabeth vîn.
Finrod: Glassen. Cuio vae!
Andreth: Cuio vae!
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Re: Sindarin Conversation Workshop

PostAuthor: Aran » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:03 pm

There seem to be some typos:

Andreth eneg nîn

eneth

Adab nîn erthannen Nargothrond.

estannen

I would also use the definite article with the possessive pronoun: i eneth nîn, i mbar nîn, i adab nîn/lîn, i athrabeth vîn as it always done for inanimate possessions as far as our attested Sindarin examples go.
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Re: Sindarin Conversation Workshop

PostAuthor: Tuilinde » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:11 pm

That looks excellent to me! Well done!

I'm sorry I've been inactive - I've not been too well after a minor op, and have also been suffering from nuisance phone calls, and lack of sleep, all of which have left me distinctly below par. However I'm picking up again now.
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