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Questions About the Exercises

Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Eryniel » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:49 am

Don't know about "pumpkin", but I suppose something like yellow - baran or malen as a more general term could be used. You would have a lenition in that though...
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Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Aran » Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:07 pm

To illustrate, I thought I'd take the grog out of the example and use 'a cup of water'. However, nen seems to apply strictly in reference to "a lake, pool or lesser river". Staying on the non-alcoholic side, there was paich ~ 'juice, syrup' and salph ~ 'broth, soup', but both words were preceded by a dagger sign in Hiswelókë, which I take to mean there is some issue about their provenance. If these two are also of dubious origin, they are no more suitable than gwîn.

The evil dagger before *paich means that it is regularized from Noldorin peich, but you can also use peich. The same development is exemplified in the parallel forms leich, laich < LIS- in PE17. And salph just has a weird spelling salff in the Etymologies.

pumpkin

No luck here, even in the early sources which abound with plant and vegetable names, there are no 'pumpkins'.
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Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:29 am

Thanks Aran,

The importance of the Noldorin and earlier forms is beginning to hit home. The Hiswelókë entries are very helpful in that regard.

I'm currently locked in mortal struggle with Sindarin past tense formation. Quite a challenge, but fascinating for all that! And primitive forms of many verbs are clearly important there too. Some of the transformations from verb stem to past tense formation are so convoluted, it seems as though Sauron stepped in and tried to make the task near impossible. I guess he feared the past would eventually catch up with him.

As ever, the help of friends and Tuilinde's motto give me encouragement: "Here, we don't do easy".
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Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: findegil » Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:04 pm

Huanarmo wrote: In the practice examples it is certainly better to use attested words, so I'll make a change here too. I readily admit to having some difficulty discerning from Sindarin wordlists just which words are fully attested. With Helge Fauskanger's excellent Quenya wordlist you always know where you stand, but it isn't quite as clear - to me, anyway - with the various Sindarin equivalents. I'm using Hiswelókë and the Ambar Eldaron wordlist, and of course the vocabulary in Pedin Edhellen.


I have always found Hiswelóke highly reliable. Nearly all forms quoted are well attested and their sources are scrupulously noted. The entry *gwîn is a very special case, as shown by the long explanatory note that accompanies it.

To illustrate, I thought I'd take the grog out of the example and use 'a cup of water'. However, nen seems to apply strictly in reference to "a lake, pool or lesser river".


Yes, in view of that I would try ylf nend (literally ‘watery cup’). But then of course there would be no longer any genitive involved.

On the other hand, why not keep the grog by using miruvor "the cordial of Imladris", a "warm and fragrant liquor" (LOTR 2:III)?
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Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:21 am

Thanks Findegil.

Eryniel and I had discussed using miruvor. It is certainly the most attractive choice.

The only thing that held me back was that it seems to be more of a Quenya form, a shortening of the fuller miruvórë. I didn't find miruvor in any of the Sindarin wordlists, so in the context of trying to employ fully attested words, the choice fell on 'juice'.

If miruvor can be regarded as an acceptable loan-word for Sindarin use, I would happily incorporate it into the practice exercise - especially as it is the drink of choice in Imladris. :yes:

Savo 'lass
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Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: findegil » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:06 pm

Huanarmo wrote:If miruvor can be regarded as an acceptable loan-word for Sindarin use, I would happily incorporate it into the practice exercise - especially as it is the drink of choice in Imladris.


At least it occurred as a loan-word in the Sindarin of Rivendell, cf. Tolkien's gloss in PE 17:37: "S[indarin] miruvor. Sindarin form taken by borrowed Quenya word".
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Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:37 am

Excellent, thanks Findegil.

I will change the example to ylf miruvor - 'a cup of miruvor'. A pleasant and enticing thought!

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Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Eryniel » Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:41 am

Alas, I do believe lenition would come into play here, rendering ylf virovor. :hmm:
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Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: findegil » Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:25 am

Eryniel wrote:Alas, I do believe lenition would come into play here, rendering ylf virovor.


Normally it would not. A noun that functions as an uninflected genitive shows no mutation in Sindarin (Tolkien in Letters #347). Cf. Aran Moria 'King of Moria' without lenition.
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Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Eryniel » Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:58 pm

Thank you findegil, one of these days I hope to not confuse that. This means we now have a wonderful example.
Im *glasseb. :)
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