Navigator
Search

Questions About the Exercises

Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Tuilinde » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:01 pm

Wonderful, Luthien and Huanarmo, this is a great thing to have begun!

May I point out that you've said
The indefinite article
where I believe you mean The definite article

I shall begin using these Exercises as soon as I get "a round tuit" - hopefully in a couple of weeks.
Tuilinde
 
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:30 pm
Location: Whitehaven, Cumbria, UK
Gender: Female

Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: findegil » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:17 pm

Lúthien wrote: translate the following english phrases into Sindarin -
a man; the son; the hill ; a tree ; the Sun ; the Telerin elf ; the gate ; a debate ; the holly-tree ; (braided) hair
adan (a human) or benn (a male);ion ; amon ; i Anor ; i teler ; i annon ; i athrabeth


Shouldn't it be i ion and i amon; and athrabeth without the article?

Lúthien wrote:- and translate these into either English or your native tongue:
in erain; in ion


ion as a plural form seems very anomalous (I would expect *iuin or *ŷn). Is it attested? I can find it in neither Hiswelóke nor Salo's Gateway.
findegil
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:25 am
Location: Stockholm
Gender: Male

Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Aran » Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:23 pm

i teler

i deler

i Anor

Actually, unique nouns like Ithil, Menel, Ceven in Sindarin and Isil, Anar, Menel, Cemen in Quenya seem always to appear without the article.

ion as a plural form seems very anomalous (I would expect *iuin or *ŷn). Is it attested? I can find it in neither Hiswelóke nor Salo's Gateway.

No, Tolkien cheated and used either hîn or ionnath. :-)
Aran
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:25 pm
Gender: Male

Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Eryniel » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:24 am

lol, typical.
Does the same also go for the "daughters", btw? I would be inclined to think so, but with Tolkien, you never know...
User avatar
Eryniel
 
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:08 pm
Location: Nenhad - Tol Harndor
Gender: Female

Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Elros » Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:00 am

Well, sellath ‘daughters’ is attested (in the same source as ionnath) — but not sill or îl, as far as I know.
User avatar
Elros
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:54 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Gender: Male

Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Eryniel » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:23 am

Yes Elros, sellath is attested as "all the daughters", a class plural. Not the same though as a plural.
User avatar
Eryniel
 
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:08 pm
Location: Nenhad - Tol Harndor
Gender: Female

Exercise 2

PostAuthor: findegil » Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:25 pm

3. caun in yrch ~ cry/clamour of the orcs
Note: An alternative meaning for caun is 'valour'. However, as valorous orcs are an unlikely proposition, the meaning 'outcry, clamour' would be understood here.

Another possible interpretation would be 'chief of the orcs'. Actually, 'chief, prince' is the most "canonical" sense, represented by the plural conin in LOTR 6:IV (conin en Annûn 'princes of the West', referring to Frodo and Sam).
As for "the horrible clamour of the Orcs", the favoured word was glam; it could even be used metonymically for a group of orcs (Quendi and Eldar, WJ:391).

6. ylf gwin ~ a cup of wine

The deduced word **gwîn for 'wine' must be considered spurious. It rests on the assumption that the place-name Dorwinion meant 'land of wine/vines'. But as we now know from Tolkien's gloss in PE 17:54, the meaning was in fact 'Young-land country'', and the element -wini- is thus a form used in compounds of the adjective gwein, -wain 'young, new' (= Q vinya).
So unfortunately there seems to be no genuine Sindarin word for 'wine' on record.
findegil
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:25 am
Location: Stockholm
Gender: Male

Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:09 am

findegil wrote:As for "the horrible clamour of the Orcs", the favoured word was glam; it could even be used metonymically for a group of orcs (Quendi and Eldar, WJ:391).


Meneg hennaid, Findegil. To keep orcs in their proper place I'll amend this to glam in yrch. Glamhoth ('din-horde') backs up that usage.

findegil wrote:The deduced word **gwîn for 'wine' must be considered spurious. It rests on the assumption that the place-name Dorwinion meant 'land of wine/vines'. But as we now know from Tolkien's gloss in PE 17:54, the meaning was in fact 'Young-land country'', and the element -wini- is thus a form used in compounds of the adjective gwein, -wain 'young, new' (= Q vinya).
So unfortunately there seems to be no genuine Sindarin word for 'wine' on record.


In the practice examples it is certainly better to use attested words, so I'll make a change here too. I readily admit to having some difficulty discerning from Sindarin wordlists just which words are fully attested. With Helge Fauskanger's excellent Quenya wordlist you always know where you stand, but it isn't quite as clear - to me, anyway - with the various Sindarin equivalents. I'm using Hiswelókë and the Ambar Eldaron wordlist, and of course the vocabulary in Pedin Edhellen.

To illustrate, I thought I'd take the grog out of the example and use 'a cup of water'. However, nen seems to apply strictly in reference to "a lake, pool or lesser river". Staying on the non-alcoholic side, there was paich ~ 'juice, syrup' and salph ~ 'broth, soup', but both words were preceded by a dagger sign in Hiswelókë, which I take to mean there is some issue about their provenance. If these two are also of dubious origin, they are no more suitable than gwîn.

If you could help with a suitable choice, please, I'd be most grateful.
User avatar
Huanarmo
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:27 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Gender: Male

Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Eryniel » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:28 am

Suilad Huanarmo, what about saw - juice? It seems to be attested in Ety 385. Would that help?
User avatar
Eryniel
 
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:08 pm
Location: Nenhad - Tol Harndor
Gender: Female

Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:17 am

Meneg hennaid, Eryniel.

That works nicely, thank you. Do you think we could stretch as far as 'pumpkin juice'? That might please the younger Párendili.

Cuio vae
User avatar
Huanarmo
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:27 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Gender: Male

Next

Return to Sindarin linguistics

Who is online

Registered users: No registered users

cron