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Questions About the Exercises

Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Aran » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:50 pm

Some more corrections:

8. I dream. ...........................Olthon.

This is most likely an impersonal verb, so 'I dream' would be *oltha nin.

10. A river flows north. .............Sîr siria forn.

In English, 'north' is both a location and a direction. In Sindarin, forn is presumably only a location, so 'north' in the sense of 'norhtwards' would be just *na forod.

4. Maetham naugrim veren. .....We fight bold dwarves. (exclusive)

In galadhremmin ennorath we see that adjectives agree in plural with a collective noun, so I would expect *naugrin verin here.

4. i 'oroth...............the horror (< goroth)
3. the land/region..............i dhôr (< dôr)

Special case mutation again: *i ngoroth, *i ndôr/i nôr.
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Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Eryniel » Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:42 am

Many thanks for the corrections and the link Aran. I have changed the excercise that I did accordingly, hoping Huranarmo will do the same soon. We are trying to make it easy so for these beginners lessons we try not to have special cases. Thanks for pointing them out.

Would you mind expanding a bit on the "impersonal verbs" with regards to Sindarin specific please? I ask this with regards to the dictionary project where it would be great if we could mark those.
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Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Aran » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:40 am

Would you mind expanding a bit on the "impersonal verbs" with regards to Sindarin specific please? I ask this with regards to the dictionary project where it would be great if we could mark those.

Well, the typical impersonal verbs are weather-verbs. In English you say 'it rains' with a dummy pronoun 'it', but this is a purely grammatical requirement, there is really no one who carries out the action, hence 'impersonal'. Other languages dismiss any subject altogether. 'It rains' would just be eil in Sindarin, and of course there is no first or second person form of this verb. Another impersonal weather verb should be thinna 'it is getting dark, dusk is falling' (lit. 'it fades').

Then there are verbs which don't describe volitional actions, but rather things one experiences without much control over it. The experiencer is then marked by the dative. We have no Sindarin examples of the full construction, but some from Quenya, Early Qenya and Goldogrin. A verb clearly marked 'impers.' by Tolkien is boe 'must' (actually N. bui); others belonging into this category seem to be pessa 'concern' (actually N. bui) and oltha- 'dream'. So 'I have to do this' could be *boe nin han cared, lit. 'it compels for me to do this', judging by Quenya ore nin karitas.

I have linked Thorsten's article on impersonal verbs above, it's a comprehensive study through the stages of Quenya and Goldogrin/Noldorin.
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Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Aran » Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:59 pm

Doing my exercises...

part 6:

3) dim the light – gwathro calad

Gwathro galad, otherwise it means 'may the light dim itself', or 'dim, light!'.

5) he shall enter Rivendell – ho minno Rivendell

Man i had hen? Pedil oh Imladris? :-)

6) we (exclusive) hear a jewel-smith hammer – lastam mírdain dammo

vírdain

7) the king summons the troop to fight – aran toltha maethad gwaith

There is a difference between an expression like 'want to see' and 'gather to fight', although both are expressed in exactly the same way in English. In the former case, one verb modifies the other one, in the latter case it doesn't. You can say 'I want (the act of) seeing', you cannot say 'I gather (the act of) fighting'.
For the construction of purpose in Sindarin an might be used: i aran toltha 'waith am maethad 'the king gathers a troop in order to fight'.

2) cuiar beriad - they live to protect

Same as above: cuiar am meriad.

6) gostar dannad i dhae – they fear the shadow falling

Same as above except there is no expression of purpose here. One could proabably say goston dannad 'I am afraid to fall', but it's the falling of the shadow here, not one's own. Hence gostar dhannad i dhae 'they fear the falling of the shadow'.

1) mí dartho - we shall wait

The word order in this construction is verb-subject, hence dartho mí(n) 'may we wait', which might be used in the sense 'let's wait'.

part 7:

Lastly, there is also the preposition o (about, concerning). This has the same consonant change pattern as a (and) and also causes an h- to be prefixed to the following word:
o (about, concerning)
siniath o Rhohan (tidings concerning Rohan)
trenarn o hedhil (a tale about elves)
peth o thawar (a word about a forest)

O(h) and a(h) behave exactly the same - a also causes an h to be inserted before a vowel, but whether you write it Finrod ah Andreth or Finrod a Handreth is just a matter of spelling.

1) you (singular, informal) sing after Arwen - ablinnog Arwen
1) avo abvinno Aragorn
4) athnallon chûb
6) ho dadguia orod

Mhm, are you really sure about these constructions - "to aftersing Arwen", "to afterenter Aragorn", "to acrosscall a harbour", "to downlive a mountain"?

5) hiniath en Legolas - according to news of Legolas

Be hiniath e-Legolas or just siniath e-Legolas 'news of Legolas', although I would understand this as news which Legolas brought with him. I'm not sure whether this is meant, or rather 'news about Legolas', which would be siniath o Lhegolas.

2) Galadriel stops after Celeborn - Galadriel datha adel Geleborn

typo: dartha
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Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Eryniel » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:31 am

Aran wrote:Doing my exercises...

Good lad :yes:

Thank you once again for your insights, especially for explaining the purpose-sentences. Since we want to keep with the excercises we once again revised rather than corrected because the am constructions are yet to be discussed.

As far as the constructions for §7 1,1,4 and 6 goes, at least the athnallon is taken directly from Pedin Edhellen: Page 50 - athnallon i hirion (I call across the river)... If you have better examples we would love to implement them :)
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Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Aran » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:04 am

As far as the constructions for §7 1,1,4 and 6 goes, at least the athnallon is taken directly from Pedin Edhellen: Page 50 - athnallon i hirion (I call across the river)... If you have better examples we would love to implement them

Well, ath- is a prefix 'across', I can't argue with that. The odd thing is that it changes the object of a verb. Just compare it with German, for example: There is "rufen" and you can say "hinüberrrufen", but the object remains the same - you still call a person, not a river. 'Across a river' is just a noun phrase and it should stay that way, hence *nallon thar i hirion.
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Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Eryniel » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:13 am

I get what you are trying to say. But if you call across to a person, it would become *athnallon an Aragorn for example. Which would again use something that is not yet covered in the excercises. I am still a learner myself, relying on the information within Pedin Edhellen, and again: the sentence I gave (athnallon i hirion) is taken directly from there. Does that mean Thorsten is wrong?
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Re: Questions About the Exercises

PostAuthor: Lúthien » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:44 am

Hi,

I've pondered this point as well, but I think Eryniel's right here. I don't see anything wrong with a construction like "across-calling a river", even if there isn't an object listening at the other side. You could just be yelling out your surprise or whatever.

But sure, I could be wrong. But then Thorsten is also wrong - and if he is, shouldn't we settle on that? I think that he'd appreciate the feedback, to use in the next version of Pedin Edhellen (if that's to come anyhow)
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