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Nó, Apa, Sí, Teldavë / Before, After, Now, At Last

Nó, Apa, Sí, Teldavë / Before, After, Now, At Last

PostAuthor: Tuilinde » Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:39 pm

This is a dual text with the English being a literal word-for-word translation. A freer English version can be found in the English section.
The verse form is called a Rondeau Rédoublé, a French verse form. See if you can work out its rules! In the first poem I managed to keep the rhyme scheme, but have had to be a little more flexible in the others.
Petri tells me that it is considered as "cheating" in Finnish to make the rhymes from suffixes. Sorry Petri!

Since the Forum really doesn't like having too much to do in one post, I'm putting each poem in separately. I hope that makes sense!


This song cycle was written through the ages by Elven lords of the Exile.



Nó hurur nér hlussainë hlaremmassen :
Nó ily' alassë vánë endammallon :
Nó lindi nér *quorainë niemmassen :
Nó i mornië túlë lattamorillon -

Before

Before lies were whispered ears-ours-in:
Before all joy departed souls-ours-from:
Before songs were drowned tears-ours-in:
Before the blackness came pits-dark-from -


Lamanyë terë rondo coammallon
Laitalë Eldamaro lindimmassen :
Anwa quettar Valaron carpamallon
Nó hurur nér hlussainë hlaremmassen ::

Sounded through high-halls home-ours-from
Praise Eldamar-of songs-ours-in;
True words Valar-of lips-ours-from,
Before lies were whispered ears-ours-in
.

I sérë Lórieno fëammassen,
Tá alcar síler lassi Aldammallo;
Teleri meldë lirner hrestammassen,
Nó ily' alassë váner endammallon ::

The peace Lorien-of spirit-ours-in
Then rays shining-white leaves tree-our-from
Teleri beloved sang shores-ours-on
Before all joy departed hearts-ours-from.


I vanië lindalëo nyellemmallon,
Ehteli sirner ninquë ostommassen,
Nandelë hlassemmë tarwammallon,
Nó lindi nér *quorainë niemmassen ::

The beauty music-of bells-ours-from,
Fountains flowed snow-white city-ours-in,
Harping heard-we gardens-ours-from
Before songs were drowned tears-ours-in:


Silmarillion síler míremmassen
Cal' *ainana samneltë v'aldammallon,
Unemmë samë thossë óremmassen
Nó i mornië túlë lattamorillon -
. . . . . . . . . Nó hurur nér hlussainë ::

Radiance-of-pure-light shone jewels-ours-in
A light-hallowed had-they as trees-ours-from,
Did-not-we have dread hearts-ours-in
Before the blackness came pits-dark-from -
. . . . . . . . . . . Before lies were whispered.


Edited / corrected 24.10.10
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Re: Nó, Apa, Sí, Teldavë / Before, After, Now, At Last

PostAuthor: Tuilinde » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:51 pm

Apa

Apa Teleri Númessë nér nehtainar;
Apa lahtanemmë i Helcë annaira;
Ap' aranier haranyemmë nér nancarnar;
Apa hannemmë teldavë carda sára -

After

After Teleri West-in were killed;
After crossed-we the Ice most-dreadful;
After kingdoms possessed-we were destroyed;
After understood-we finally deed bitter -


Sannemmë farnë Hrestar Sinë tenya;
Quentemmë liyúmemmar nér tulcainar,
Nattiral' ambar martaina ve oira,
Apa Teleri Númessë nér nehtainar ::

Thought-we it-was-enough Shores These to-reach;
Said-we hosts-ours were established,
Despising doom decreed as eternal,
After Teleri West-in were killed.


Tulcien aranier, Tirion né hehtaina;
Accarien hrúcarë Melkoro annaica
Ríeryallo Silmarilli nauvar mapainar,
Apa lahtanemmë i Helcë annaira ::

In-order-to-establish kingdoms, Tirion was abandoned;
In-order-to avenge evil-deeds Melkor-of most-grievous
Crown-his-from Silmarils will-be seized,
After crossed-we the Ice most-dreadful.


Anant' ambar hilanyë; nossi nér nehtainar;
Haldë ostor yar carnemmë sí unë nár,
Nyerenen hannemmë anelte ammelainar,
Ap' aranier haranyemmë nér nancarnar ::

And-yet doom followed, kin were slain;
Hidden cities which built-we now forlorn are,
With-grief understood-we were-they (too) much-loved,
After kingdoms possessed-we were destroyed.


Númello Valar mentaner hossi taurë;
Levanemmë, pan nóremmar nér lantainar,
Si marimmë, lá lender ve arcaneltë,
Apa hannemmë teldavë carda sára -
. . . . . . . .Apa nossimmar nér nehtainar ::

West-from Valar sent Hosts mighty;
Moved-we, for lands-ours were fallen,
Here dwell-we, not gone as prayed-they,
After understood-we finally deed bitter -
. . . . . . . .After kin-ours were slain.
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Re: Nó, Apa, Sí, Teldavë / Before, After, Now, At Last

PostAuthor: Tuilinde » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:57 am



Sí Lumbë naira luvu' oll' arda sina;
Sí séremma *nimpë hestëa ata nëa;
Sí mauya mapa macili mannarennammar;
Sí i cilmë – lelya, hya lemya – túlëa -

Now

Now shadow dreadful brooding-is across world this;
Now peace-ours frail failing-is again once;
Now it-is-necessary to-seize swords hands-into-ours;
Now the choice – to-go or to-remain – coming-is -


As Corma Isilduro caurë cuivëa;
Lúnaturco Saurono ná tulcaina ::
Vanwiello ulco alapoica tenëa
Sí Lumbë naira luvu' oll' arda sina ::

With Ring Isildur-from fear awakening-is;
Dark-Tower Sauron-of is established.
Past-time-from evil impure arriving-is
Now shadow dreadful brooding-is across world this.


Hróatani mahtien yoþanga utúlier
Írinqua, melehtë ar túrë mapëar ::
Térë linnóri sí Caurë alálië,
Sí séremma *nimpë hestëa ata nëa ::

Eastern Men in-order-to-fight with-enemy-soldiers have-come
Desire-full, power and mastery seizing-are.
Through many-lands now Fear has grown,
Now peace-ours frail failing-is again once.


Ñandaro lalirë lindë lindelëa;
Nyares nyarna yalúmëa ohtaro ::
Síra arnessë seldor mahtien párar,
Sí mauya mapa macili mannarennammar ::

The harper not-sings a song gentle, melodious;
Tells-he saga olden war-of.
Today youngest boys in-order-to-fight learning-are,
Now it-is-necessary to-seize swords hands-into-ours.


Endar nainala quérar inte Númenna,
Sámammar Eldamar yalúmeo enyalar;
Panommar nár sicil maica aicasse,
Sí i cilmë – lelya, hya lemya – túlëa -
. . . . . . . . . . .Sí Lumbë luvua.

Hearts weeping turn themselves West-towards,
Minds-ours Elvenhome olden-time-of remembering-are;
Plans-ours are knife blade sharp-on,
Now the choice – to-go or to-remain – coming-is -
. . . . . . . . . . . .Now Shadow brooding-is.


Edited 9.9.10
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Re: Nó, Apa, Sí, Teldavë / Before, After, Now, At Last

PostAuthor: órerámar » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:27 pm

Hi Tuilinde,
I like your Rondeau redoublé and I must say it feels a bit less lonely when I read your fixed form poems, because in the poets association where I take part, I seem to be the only one to enjoy playing with rhymes and forms. They are all into free verse. So let's continue the ode less travelled!


Nó furur nér hlussainë hlasemmassen :
Nó ily' alassë váner endammallon :
Nó lindi nér *quorainë niemmassen :
Nó i mornië túlë lattamorillon -

First I would like to ask to whom does the 1st pl. pronoun refer to? In the latest conception of pronouns -mme is a dual form. So I am not sure what your intention is here.

furu : would probably become huru (VT41:8 - as in fuine = huine)
hlasemassen : the stem of hlas is hlar as attested in the dual hlaru (PE17:62).
váner : alasse being singular = váne


Lamyaina terë rondo coammallon
Laitalë Eldamaro lindimmassen :
Anwa quettar Valaron carpamallon
Nó furur nér hlussainë hlasemmassen ::

lamyaina : the verb is connected with "laitale" (praise sounded through), so this should be in the past tense. In my opinion this is not a participle, it just looks like that because you turned the sentence.

I sérë Lórieno fëammassen,
Tá alcar síler lassi Aldammallo;
Teleri meldë lirner hrestammassen,
Nó ily' alassë váner endammallon ::

I am not sure to understand the second line, could you please explain?


Silmarillion síler míremmassen
Cal' ainaina samner v'aldammallon,
Unemmë samë thossë óremmassen
Nó i mornië túlë lattamorillon -
. . . . . . . . . Nó furur nér hlussainë ::

ainaina : maybe aina- would forme a participle in ainana - like aista- = aistana to avoid the repetition of "ai"
samner : should this not take the pronoun "they" - samnelte
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Re: Nó, Apa, Sí, Teldavë / Before, After, Now, At Last

PostAuthor: Tuilinde » Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:12 pm

Response To Questions

At last I'm making some time to come back to this and deal with your comments and questions;

First I would like to ask to whom does the 1st pl. pronoun refer to? In the latest conception of pronouns -mme is a dual form. So I am not sure what your intention is here.


Drat these pronouns!! It refers to the Exiles. According to the edition of Thorsten's course I have in book form, on pages 28 & 57 he has -lme/-mme as plural, and -lve/-ngwe as the dual forms. I think this is his own editorial decision, and I've followed it.

I think there is now such confusion over the choices available, that perhaps I should always include a note to say which set I've chosen to use.

furu : would probably become huru (VT41:8 - as in fuine = huine)

Thanks I'll fix that. And it is rather good that it makes the very first line wonderfully alliterative - and at the same time onomatopeic (have I spelt that right?!?!).

hlasemassen : the stem of hlas is hlar as attested in the dual hlaru (PE17:62).

And that!

váner : alasse being singular = váne

And that!


Lamyaina terë rondo coammallon
Laitalë Eldamaro lindimmassen :
Anwa quettar Valaron carpamallon
Nó furur nér hlussainë hlasemmassen ::

lamyaina : the verb is connected with "laitale" (praise sounded through), so this should be in the past tense. In my opinion this is not a participle, it just looks like that because you turned the sentence.

One of the problems that come with a verse form with such a tight rhyme scheme is that often you have to turn sentences, and then you get tenses in a muddle! Thanks I'll fix it.

I sérë Lórieno fëammassen,
Tá alcar síler lassi Aldammallo;
Teleri meldë lirner hrestammassen,
Nó ily' alassë váner endammallon ::

I am not sure to understand the second line, could you please explain?


alca is a ray of light; so the meaning is Then rays-of-light shone-white leaves tree-ours-from
The free English line is The White Tree's rays shone out from leaves and bole which containes much more than the Quenya can express in this form, so it's "Rays of light shone white from the leaves of our Tree" (sort of!)

Silmarillion síler míremmassen
Cal' ainaina samner v'aldammallon,
Unemmë samë thossë óremmassen
Nó i mornië túlë lattamorillon -
. . . . . . . . . Nó furur nér hlussainë ::

ainaina : maybe aina- would forme a participle in ainana - like aista- = aistana to avoid the repetition of "ai"

Yes, I did wonder about that form, and hoped that someone would offer another option. I'll do as you suggest, it is much more euphonious.

samner : should this not take the pronoun "they" - samnelte

Yes indeed it should - that one just slipped past me.

Many thanks for those, I'll incorporate them now.

I also have the final poem in the Cycle At Last / Teldave! ready and will put it in
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Re: Nó, Apa, Sí, Teldavë / Before, After, Now, At Last

PostAuthor: Tuilinde » Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:50 pm

Teldavë!

Teldavë ulco avánië; nás nancarna!
Teldavë ná turúna Cotumomma!
Teldavë túrë Atanion cenammë!
Teldavë lelyuvammë Númenna!

At Last!

At last evil vanished-has; is-it destroyed!
At last is defeated Enemy-ours !
At last rule Men-of seeing-are-we!
At last go-will-we West-to!


Ilya arda carpëa Periandion,
Nyarnalta túrëo urda síra liraina
Mótalta tyeleltë, Endórë lerien
Teldavë ulco avánië; nás nancarna!

All world speaking-is Halflings-about,
Tale-theirs victory-of arduous today sung-is
Labour-theirs ended-they, Middle-Earth in-order-to-set-free
At last evil vanished-has; is-it destroyed!


Á lasta – Lier lérë túler mahtien v'er;
Leryanemmë yalúmëo teviemmar,
Astar yo estelnen elmë turúner ::
Teldavë ná turúna Cotumomma!

Listen – Peoples Free came in-order-to-fight as one;
Let-go-we old-times-of hatreds-ours,
Loyalty and hope-with we-all won.
At-last is defeated Enemy-ours!


Aran Elessar – sí lier ilyar laitëar-
Turmen envinyatëa. Namaryar cenammë ::
Lossi Aldassë calimavë ninquitëar!
Teldavë túrë Atanion cenammë!

King Elessar – now peoples all praising-are -
Realm renewing-is. Judgements-his see-we.
Blossoms Tree-on bright-ly white-shining-are!
At last rule Men-of see-we!


*Oravë Valion ná lavina ilyaquenna
I Valinorello ambë sercessë nëa ::
Ciryar Sindë ciryuvar Eldamarenna -
Teldavë lelyuvammë Númenna!
Teldavë ulco avánië!

Mercy Valar-of is granted everyone-to
Who Valinor-from departed blood-in once.
Ships Grey sail-will Elvenhome-to -
At- last go-will-we West-to!
At-last evil has-vanished!
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Re: Nó, Apa, Sí, Teldavë / Before, After, Now, At Last

PostAuthor: órerámar » Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:20 pm

Drat these pronouns!! It refers to the Exiles. According to the edition of Thorsten's course I have in book form, on pages 28 & 57 he has -lme/-mme as plural, and -lve/-ngwe as the dual forms. I think this is his own editorial decision, and I've followed it.


I have downloaded the course (suppose it is version 2.0 from Sept. 23, 2008). The table of pronouns is based on PE17:57 apparently. Now PE17 presents material from different periods from the end of the 50ties and the 60ties. The pronoun table from PE49:51 is from 1968 and is consistent with what has been corrected in the 2nd edition of LotR. There "omentielmo" had been amended to "omentielvo" and "-lve" had therefore become a plural inclusive. Since we still have "laituvalmet" unchanged, "-lme" is therefore a plural exclusive which is quite logic, for the Hobbits are not praising themselves. In this pronominal system "-mme" is a dual excl.

I think there is now such confusion over the choices available, that perhaps I should always include a note to say which set I've chosen to use.


You could have it much easier. If you do not have PE49, then you can find the table here:

http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/quenya.htm#Heading12

Although the course is not updated yet, HKF had updated the pronoun section in his article "Quenya - the ancient tongue".


Tá alcar síler lassi Aldammallo;

I am not sure to understand the second line, could you please explain?


alca is a ray of light; so the meaning is Then rays-of-light shone-white leaves tree-ours-from
The free English line is The White Tree's rays shone out from leaves and bole which containes much more than the Quenya can express in this form, so it's "Rays of light shone white from the leaves of our Tree" (sort of!)


Thanks for the explanation. It seems to me that there is a case missing. Since in Quenya you have from the leaves of our Tree, you have two cases : an ablative and a genitive, but that is a problem for your rhyme scheme. Maybe you could turn it into something like: Rays shone out from the leaves, out from our Tree?
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Re: Nó, Apa, Sí, Teldavë / Before, After, Now, At Last

PostAuthor: findegil » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:47 pm

órerámar wrote:The pronoun table from PE49:51 is from 1968 and is consistent with what has been corrected in the 2nd edition of LotR. There "omentielmo" had been amended to "omentielvo" and "-lve" had therefore become a plural inclusive. Since we still have "laituvalmet" unchanged, "-lme" is therefore a plural exclusive which is quite logic, for the Hobbits are not praising themselves.


It would be perfectly logical if the speakers had referred to them with a second-person pronoun, i.e. if laituvalmet had meant **''we will praise you'. But both in a laita te and laituvalmet the verb has third-person objects ('praise/bless them!', 'we will praise/bless them'). By the phrase andave laituvalmet the speakers are evidently encouraging each other to continue praising: thus it is very hard to see how any addressed person could be excluded.

In this pronominal system "-mme" is a dual excl.


But only there as it seems. In nearly all the running Quenya texts by Tolkien where -mme/-mma occurs it functions as 1st plural exclusive. I think there would be much less confusion if we stuck to that.
Last edited by findegil on Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nó, Apa, Sí, Teldavë / Before, After, Now, At Last

PostAuthor: órerámar » Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:35 pm

Órerámar wrote:The pronoun table from PE49:51 is from 1968 and is consistent with what has been corrected in the 2nd edition of LotR. There "omentielmo" had been amended to "omentielvo" and "-lve" had therefore become a plural inclusive. Since we still have "laituvalmet" unchanged, "-lme" is therefore a plural exclusive which is quite logic, for the Hobbits are not praising themselves.

Findegil wrote: It would be perfectly logical if the speakers had referred to them with a second-person pronoun, i.e. if laituvalmet had meant **''we will praise you'. But both in a laita te and laituvalmet the verb has third-person objects ('praise/bless them!', 'we will praise/bless them'). By the phrase andave laituvalmet the speakers are evidently encouraging each other to continue praising: thus it is very hard to see how any addressed person could be excluded.


I cannot see what difference the pronoun "you" or "them" would make here. In both cases the praised persons are not concerned with the carrying out of the action "praising" but with receiving the result "praise". I think that the pronoun of a verb should be identified by the action that is carried out by those referred to by such pronoun. In addition, I feel there is nothing more excluding than refering to someone who is near you in the 3rd person as if in fact he was not present at all.
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Re: Nó, Apa, Sí, Teldavë / Before, After, Now, At Last

PostAuthor: findegil » Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:47 am

órerámar wrote:I cannot see what difference the pronoun "you" or "them" would make here.


The distinction inclusive/exclusive turns on exactly that difference. "[T]he inclusive we : 'thou and I' (and possibly others associated with either party)";"the exclusive we: that did not refer to the person addressed" (Tolkien as quoted by Gilson in PE 17:14)
Last edited by findegil on Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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