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Nó, Apa, Sí, Teldavë / Before, After, Now, At Last

Re: Nó, Apa, Sí, Teldavë / Before, After, Now, At Last

PostAuthor: órerámar » Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:31 pm

findegil wrote:[quote="órerámar]I cannot see what difference the pronoun "you" or "them" would make here. [/quote]

The distinction inclusive/exclusive turns on exactly that difference. "[T]he inclusive we : 'thou and I' (and possibly others associated with either party)";"the exclusive we: that did not refer to the person addressed" (Tolkien as quoted by Gilson in PE 17:14)[/quote]


In your previous message your argument referred to the objective pronoun and the pesent reply concerns the subjective pronoun. I think we should not mix both. I replied to your "you" and "them" as an objective.

The passage in PE17:14 deals with the subjective and the possessive. The problem of the meeting Tolkien was dissatisfied with concerns the fact of two groups being part of this meeting that could obviously not exclude part of it.
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Re: Nó, Apa, Sí, Teldavë / Before, After, Now, At Last

PostAuthor: findegil » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:36 am

órerámar wrote:
findegil wrote:
órerámar wrote:I cannot see what difference the pronoun "you" or "them" would make here.


The distinction inclusive/exclusive turns on exactly that difference. "[T]he inclusive we : 'thou and I' (and possibly others associated with either party)";"the exclusive we: that did not refer to the person addressed" (Tolkien as quoted by Gilson in PE 17:14)


In your previous message your argument referred to the objective pronoun and the pesent reply concerns the subjective pronoun. I think we should not mix both. I replied to your "you" and "them" as an objective.


I'm afraid you misunderstood me then. I referred to the objective pronoun only as an indication of the nature of the "we" (the subject in A laita te ... andave laituvalmet). If the meaning were 'we will praise you', the "we" would be exclusive of the addressed persons: as you said, the hobbits are not supposed to praise themselves. But since the meaning is 'let us praise them ... long we will praise them', the hobbits are not addressed. Instead the speakers are addressing each other with invitations to praise them, which makes the "we" inclusive of the addressees ("we" = "you all and I together").
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