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Re: Questions About Exercises

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:50 pm

Thanks for revisiting that question, and for a most reassuring response.

Those boundaries are more like safeguards than barriers. And there is plenty of scope for creative application within them as well.

Nai elen caluva tielyanna.
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Questions About Exercise 20

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:46 pm

Well, this exercise has certainly got the better of me.

Twice I've worked through the questions, without achieving 80% as a pass mark. Formation of genitive and possessive case endings is not the problem. Where I'm falling down is in working out which case to use (even with so many helpful hints in the exercise!) and more particularly in getting the correct word order. The truth is I'm making a dreadful mess of the syntax.

To give one example: Hirnes i vanwa seldo cú ~ 'He found the lost boy's bow'. For much-needed practice I tried to come up with a slight variant: 'He found the boy's lost bow'. This shouldn't be so difficult, but I tied myself in knots. Among numerous attempts I drafted were Hirnes i vanwa cú (i) seldova and Hirnes (i) seldova (i) vanwa cú, but I'm unsure of them and neither 'feels' quite right. The possessive seems called for, but I'm not entirely sure of that. The definite articles seem to get in the way, but some must be necessary. Then a little voice whispers "last declinable word", and I want to change everything all over again. I would welcome any advice on how the variant sentence should read, please.

I've revised Lesson 3 from Thorsten Renk's course book and plan to have a third attempt this week. Well may he speak of 'awkward stress patterns' - I know what he means! :peentjes:

A good thing about the large number of practice examples in this exercise is that they are a fresh test each time and I'm not just remembering them by rote; the proof of that is that I've managed to get several of them wrong twice. But I'm determined to reach that pass mark.
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Re: Questions About Exercises

PostAuthor: atwe » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:08 am

Hi,

'Hirnes i seldova vanwa cú' seems OK to me. The expression 'seldova-vanwa-cú' is a unit here so the single definite article in front of it will do. After all, both seldova and vanwa act as qualifiers of the object cú, so this is no different from, say, 'the green, lush grass' etc.
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Re: Questions About Exercises

PostAuthor: findegil » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:06 am

Since the possessive normally follows the noun it modifies, I would go for Hirnes (i) vanwa cú seldova. (I think the article is optional in this kind of phrases. The possessive seems hardly ever to take the article.)
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Re: Questions About Exercises

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:54 am

Thank you both. I'm relieved that the possessive was correct, and I will learn to do without those redundant definite articles. Basically I need to 'think Quenya' more, especially where case endings are concerned.

And it is not really so stressful. In fact it's good to be tested and challenged, and not to develop delusions of adequacy.

Tuilinde is right when she speaks of the benefits of the occasional lesson in humility. Those can be the best lessons of all, and I've certainly enjoyed several. Now to see if the third time really does pay for all...
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Questions About Exercise 20 & 21

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:25 pm

Very slowly I am starting to get the hang of the Genitive and Possessive. Still blundering at times, but all the practice examples are helping, thanks! I would never have understood the full complexity (no, I mean RICHNESS) without having the exercises to work on.

There is one particularly beautiful sentence that I've written out and re-read each day. It's a real gem, and includes practically every grammatical element from the two lessons, including the vowel extension in longer words: Nórë i Eldaiva ná nórë rimbë vanyë engwíva; nórë ú Eldaron ná nórë morniéva, pan Atani i nórëo umir hlarë i alya lambë i Eldaiva.

There are two questions I'd like to ask, and I do appreciate the assistance. Building on the first practice example, I limpë Eldaiva, would the correct way to render "the wine of the King of the Elves" be I limpë Eldaron aranwa ? I wrestled quite a while with the words and syntax, and it will be a considerable relief if it is correct Quenya usage.

The other query relates to the phrase i canta rassi ninqui orontion in the eighth sentence of Lesson 21. I thought hard about this example and came back to it a couple of times, each time wanting to make the last word orontíva. My question is twofold: would the possessive case be valid here on the basis that peaks are an essential attribute or characteristic of the mountains, and secondly would the -i- vowel lengthen (in genitive or possessive) from the plural noun oronti?
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Re: Questions About Exercise 20 & 21

PostAuthor: órerámar » Sat May 01, 2010 7:56 pm

"Huanarmo"

There are two questions I'd like to ask, and I do appreciate the assistance. Building on the first practice example, I limpë Eldaiva, would the correct way to render "the wine of the King of the Elves" be I limpë Eldaron aranwa ? I wrestled quite a while with the words and syntax, and it will be a considerable relief if it is correct Quenya usage.


limpe Eldaiva sounds strange to me. I think this would mean that the Elves own wine which they do not share with anyone. Taking into consideration the attested example: coimas Eldaron the waybread of the Elves, I would equally say that the wine of the Elves would be limbe Eldaron.
In the wine of the King of the Elves, you have to put together what belongs together: the wine of the King = limpe arano + King of the Elves = aran Eldaron = limpe arano Eldaron or if we speak of a wine that belongs solely to the king : limpe aranwa Eldaron.

The other query relates to the phrase i canta rassi ninqui orontion in the eighth sentence of Lesson 21. I thought hard about this example and came back to it a couple of times, each time wanting to make the last word orontíva. My question is twofold: would the possessive case be valid here on the basis that peaks are an essential attribute or characteristic of the mountains,


The meaning of the sentence is : treasures are found between the four horns of the white mountains. The moutains take the "o" genitive because it indicates the geographical location of the horns. If you use the possessive, it would not attibute a characteristic to the mountains but to the horns and since the horns are in the plural, it would have to be "orontive". It would mean "the four mountain horns" or "mountainous horns". If the horns are to be the essential attribute of the mountains, then "oronti canta rassive" would mean the "four horned mountains".

The following examples from PE17:147 show the different uses of -va /-o :

arquen andamakilwa = The Knight of the Long Sword (the possessive describes the person with an adjective "long-sworded") attested example
The same can be expressed by : arquen andamakilo (the Knight of the Long Sword) not attested but formed on the attested example "ciryalion" below.
As you can see the suffixes are on the word that are giving the characteristic to the person.

Attested example: aran lintaciryalíva or Aran linta ciryalion which mean both "King of (with) swift ships".

If you wish to express ownership of the object by the person, it would be: andamakil arquenwa (in his possession now)
If you speak of the sword that comes from the Knight, but not now in his possession : andamakil arqueno

and secondly would the -i- vowel lengthen (in genitive or possessive) from the plural noun oronti?


I think that it would not, because the stress in the plural "oronti" would be on the "o" before the consonant group. By adding "-iva", this stress would not change and therefore, I see no reason to lengthen the "i" which would displace the stress.

But maybe, someone else has a diffrent opinion.
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Re: Questions About Exercises

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Sun May 02, 2010 11:37 am

Many thanks. All these comments are tremendously helpful and I will study them carefully.

I am looking for all the 'good Quenya' examples I can find. Things are slowly sinking in, but the emphasis remains on "slowly", it has to be said.

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Re: Questions About Exercises

PostAuthor: findegil » Mon May 03, 2010 3:53 pm

órerámar wrote:
"Huanarmo"
There are two questions I'd like to ask, and I do appreciate the assistance.
Building on the first practice example, I limpë Eldaiva, would the
correct way to render "the wine of the King of the Elves" be I limpë
Eldaron aranwa
? I wrestled quite a while with the words and syntax,
and it will be a considerable relief if it is correct Quenya usage.


limpe Eldaiva sounds strange to me. I think this would mean that the
Elves own wine which they do not share with anyone. Taking into
consideration the attested example: coimas Eldaron the waybread of
the Elves, I would equally say that the wine of the Elves would be limbe
Eldaron
.


As "Quendi and Eldar" (WJ,pp.368--369) has it, 'the language of the Eldar' is expressed by lambe Eldaiva when it means 'the tongue spoken by the Eldar', whereas lambe Eldaron would mean 'Elvish adopted as the language of another people'. Accordingly, limpe Eldaiva ought to be 'wine produced and consumed by the Eldar' and limpe Eldaron 'wine originating from the Eldar but obtained and consumed by others'. But as shown by i·coimas Eldaron, the waybread made and used by the Eldar alone, and lambe Quendion, the language spoken by Elves, (PMe,p.395), this distinction between possessive and genitive case was not observed in the tarquesta (living Quenya) of the Third Age. The possessive of the general plural must at most have been a rare form, considering that the only instance on record is Eldaiva/Eldaive in one single text ("Quendi and Eldar") and that there was an increasing "tendency to prefer the [genitives] or use them in place of the [possessives]". The form is also conspicuously missing in the Plotz declensions.


In the wine of the King of the Elves, you have to put together what
belongs together: the wine of the King = limpe arano + King of the Elves =
aran Eldaron = limpe arano Eldaron or if we speak of a wine that belongs
solely to the king : limpe aranwa Eldaron.


I would rather interpret limpe aranwa Eldaron as 'royal wine of [the] Elves' or 'wine of Elves belonging to the king'. The possessive differs from the other case forms in being syntactically an adjective (aran-wa = roy-al, king-owned), and as such it cannot readily be qualified by a noun in genitive. If arano Eldaron is unsuitable for some reason, you could substitute a compound: limpe Eldaranwa 'wine of the Elven-king'.


órerámar wrote:
"Huanarmo"
and secondly would the -i- vowel lengthen (in genitive or possessive)
from the plural noun oronti?


I think that it would not, because the stress in the plural "oronti" would
be on the "o" before the consonant group. By adding "-iva", this stress
would not change and therefore, I see no reason to lengthen the "i" which
would displace the stress.

But maybe, someone else has a diffrent opinion.


Well, as the instrumental (ciry)ainen corresponds to (lass)ínen, I think analogy points to *(oront)íva as counterpart of (Eld)aiva. Also cf. the possessive singular táríva from tári 'queen' (PE 17,p.76). But why wrestle with this dubious form, which we can easily do without? I can't think of any situation where neither the genitive *orontion nor the possessive *orontelíva would work equally well.
Last edited by findegil on Wed May 05, 2010 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Questions About Exercises

PostAuthor: órerámar » Mon May 03, 2010 8:24 pm

But as shown by i·coimas Eldaron, the waybread made and used by the Eldar alone

Well, this is an incomplete citation. The "Of Lembas" says "...The Eldar did not give it to Men, save only to a few whom they loved, if they were in great need". In other words, they did seldom give it away for the reasons explained, but they did. The bread could be eaten by others. This justifies the genitive apart from the fact that there was a tendency to prefer that form.

The possessive of the general plural must at most have been a rare form, considering that the only instance on record is Eldaiva/Eldaive in one single text ("Quendi and Eldar") and that there was an increasing "tendency to prefer the [genitives] or use them in place of the [possessives]". The form is also conspicuously missing in the Plotz declensions.


In the same paragraphe WJ:369, where Tolkien states that there was a tendency to prefer the derivative genitives and says that "alkar Oromeo" or "alkar Oroméva" could both be used for "the splendour of Orome", he continues however explaining that those forms do not say exactly the same thing.


Well, as the instrumental (ciry)ainen corresponds to (lass)ínen, I think analogy points to *(oront)íva as counterpart of (Eld)aiva.


Sorry, but I do not think that these forms are simply the counterparts of the others. Lassínen (lasse +inen) and orontiva (oron - stem oront + iva) are suffixed in a different way. The rule seems to be that words with three syllables or more and of which the last syllables are short get a stress and that stress is placed where normally the secondary stress is, (cf. RGO) : Orome - Oroméva. In "orontiva" the ante-penultimate vowel is long due to the stem "oront-", so in the plural or with -va the pronounciation remains within the stress scheme.

Also cf. the possessive singular táríva from tári 'queen' (PE 17,p.76). Yes, táríva has finally confirmed that two "i" would merge into a long "í", but again that has nothing to do with oront- + iva.

But why wrestle with this dubious form, which we can easily do without? I can't think of any situation where neither the genitive *orontion nor the possessive *orontelíva would work equally well.


Because, as Tolkien demonstrates in WJ:369, you may more or less translate into the same thing in English, but it is not the same. Partitive plural is not the same as plural and well wrestling is fun.
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