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Párendili • View topic - Questions About Exercises
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Questions About Exercises

Re: Questions About Exercises

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:50 pm

Thanks for revisiting that question, and for a most reassuring response.

Those boundaries are more like safeguards than barriers. And there is plenty of scope for creative application within them as well.

Nai elen caluva tielyanna.
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Questions About Exercise 20

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:46 pm

Well, this exercise has certainly got the better of me.

Twice I've worked through the questions, without achieving 80% as a pass mark. Formation of genitive and possessive case endings is not the problem. Where I'm falling down is in working out which case to use (even with so many helpful hints in the exercise!) and more particularly in getting the correct word order. The truth is I'm making a dreadful mess of the syntax.

To give one example: Hirnes i vanwa seldo cú ~ 'He found the lost boy's bow'. For much-needed practice I tried to come up with a slight variant: 'He found the boy's lost bow'. This shouldn't be so difficult, but I tied myself in knots. Among numerous attempts I drafted were Hirnes i vanwa cú (i) seldova and Hirnes (i) seldova (i) vanwa cú, but I'm unsure of them and neither 'feels' quite right. The possessive seems called for, but I'm not entirely sure of that. The definite articles seem to get in the way, but some must be necessary. Then a little voice whispers "last declinable word", and I want to change everything all over again. I would welcome any advice on how the variant sentence should read, please.

I've revised Lesson 3 from Thorsten Renk's course book and plan to have a third attempt this week. Well may he speak of 'awkward stress patterns' - I know what he means! :peentjes:

A good thing about the large number of practice examples in this exercise is that they are a fresh test each time and I'm not just remembering them by rote; the proof of that is that I've managed to get several of them wrong twice. But I'm determined to reach that pass mark.
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Re: Questions About Exercises

PostAuthor: atwe » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:08 am

Hi,

'Hirnes i seldova vanwa cú' seems OK to me. The expression 'seldova-vanwa-cú' is a unit here so the single definite article in front of it will do. After all, both seldova and vanwa act as qualifiers of the object cú, so this is no different from, say, 'the green, lush grass' etc.
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Re: Questions About Exercises

PostAuthor: findegil » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:06 am

Since the possessive normally follows the noun it modifies, I would go for Hirnes (i) vanwa cú seldova. (I think the article is optional in this kind of phrases. The possessive seems hardly ever to take the article.)
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Re: Questions About Exercises

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:54 am

Thank you both. I'm relieved that the possessive was correct, and I will learn to do without those redundant definite articles. Basically I need to 'think Quenya' more, especially where case endings are concerned.

And it is not really so stressful. In fact it's good to be tested and challenged, and not to develop delusions of adequacy.

Tuilinde is right when she speaks of the benefits of the occasional lesson in humility. Those can be the best lessons of all, and I've certainly enjoyed several. Now to see if the third time really does pay for all...
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Questions About Exercise 20 & 21

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:25 pm

Very slowly I am starting to get the hang of the Genitive and Possessive. Still blundering at times, but all the practice examples are helping, thanks! I would never have understood the full complexity (no, I mean RICHNESS) without having the exercises to work on.

There is one particularly beautiful sentence that I've written out and re-read each day. It's a real gem, and includes practically every grammatical element from the two lessons, including the vowel extension in longer words: Nórë i Eldaiva ná nórë rimbë vanyë engwíva; nórë ú Eldaron ná nórë morniéva, pan Atani i nórëo umir hlarë i alya lambë i Eldaiva.

There are two questions I'd like to ask, and I do appreciate the assistance. Building on the first practice example, I limpë Eldaiva, would the correct way to render "the wine of the King of the Elves" be I limpë Eldaron aranwa ? I wrestled quite a while with the words and syntax, and it will be a considerable relief if it is correct Quenya usage.

The other query relates to the phrase i canta rassi ninqui orontion in the eighth sentence of Lesson 21. I thought hard about this example and came back to it a couple of times, each time wanting to make the last word orontíva. My question is twofold: would the possessive case be valid here on the basis that peaks are an essential attribute or characteristic of the mountains, and secondly would the -i- vowel lengthen (in genitive or possessive) from the plural noun oronti?
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Re: Questions About Exercise 20 & 21

PostAuthor: órerámar » Sat May 01, 2010 7:56 pm

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Re: Questions About Exercises

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Sun May 02, 2010 11:37 am

Many thanks. All these comments are tremendously helpful and I will study them carefully.

I am looking for all the 'good Quenya' examples I can find. Things are slowly sinking in, but the emphasis remains on "slowly", it has to be said.

Márienna
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Re: Questions About Exercises

PostAuthor: findegil » Mon May 03, 2010 3:53 pm

Last edited by findegil on Wed May 05, 2010 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Questions About Exercises

PostAuthor: órerámar » Mon May 03, 2010 8:24 pm

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