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Questions About Exercise 17

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:54 am

Tuilinde, thank you for the very helpful explanation about the verb 'to be'. Plus I found it useful to have confirmation of the alternative forms, accented and unaccented, and the hints on usage.

The expression anda néya (or nëa) is one I've noted for future use. 'Long, long ago' and 'once upon a time' are handy phrases in this line of work.

With best wishes on behalf of all the Párendili for a speedy recovery,
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Re: Questions About Exercises 18 & 19

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:09 pm

Órerámar, thank you so much for preparing these exercises. They have given me a much better grasp of the principles behind intensifying and the comparative and superlative forms.

Now that I understand how both an(a)- and ar(i)- work in comparative and superlative constructions, it all makes a great deal more sense. I was using them too narrowly before. And likewise with the outline on epe and . Seeing the usage in terms of 'brighter; very/much brighter; far and away brighter' really helps.

For extra practice I was going to try to say in my best Quenya that the lessons are incomparable - a definite superlative! In fact they are a perfect complement to Tuilinde's lessons with their wonderful vocabulary, vivid imagery, helpful explanations and well-chosen examples. It is kind of you to do this, and I'm sure others will derive enjoyment and enlightenment from them too.

In Exercise 18 I have a question about Arwen's tressure. Tuilinde won't be surprised that I picked this one. Apart from complimenting you for such a lovely example, I would like to understand fully the long -é construction in carrea Arwenéva. I understand the possessive case ending, but not why the long -é appears. If you have time I'd be grateful if you could clarify that, please.

Incidentally, both lessons have done wonders for my vocabulary. Quáco is unforgettable, though I've added it to my 'useful words' list just to be on the safe side. With a memory like mine, lists are a good aid. And leptafinya is a word I will have to work into a piece of writing; there will just have to be a nimble-fingered character among all the inept carpenters. The examples of consonant shifts were also very helpful: I understand ammelda, ammaita and allanda, and it's very useful to see these constructions worked into the examples. Sincere thanks!

In Exercise 19 I made a couple of mistakes. Once again, if you have time, I'd be grateful for advice about where I've gone wrong. In the first and last 'Translate into Quenya' sentences I went awry. In the first I answered araforna where you have anaforna (for 'the most northern land'), and in the very last sentence I wrote arúmaite where the answers have anúmaite (for 'the clumsiest carpenter'). Perhaps I'm being influenced too much by English construction, but both seem to require a strong superlative. To put the question another way, once the most extreme level of intensification is reached, would it be inaccurate to use ar(a)- ?

Hantanyel,
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Supplementary Question About Exercise 19

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:22 pm

Oops, there's one more thing I meant to ask, hopefully a straightforward one to answer.

In the second-last sentence 'This is the best book to read now', I wrote Sin i arya ná parmaron cendien sí. The answer gives Sin arya... without the definite article. Is it needed in this construction for 'best'? I had been re-reading examples of the Quenya gerund in dative, so cendien made sense and I was pleased to get that right.
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Re: Supplementary Question About Exercise 19

PostAuthor: órerámar » Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:35 pm

Huanarmo wrote:Oops, there's one more thing I meant to ask, hopefully a straightforward one to answer.

In the second-last sentence 'This is the best book to read now', I wrote Sin i arya ná parmaron cendien sí. The answer gives Sin arya... without the definite article. Is it needed in this construction for 'best'? I had been re-reading examples of the Quenya gerund in dative, so cendien made sense and I was pleased to get that right.


I would put the article (because i arya is attested) and even change the word order to make the sentence clearer : Sin ná i arya parmaron cendien sí. I shall change that. I think that my Haiku writing is corrupting my prose writing (always cutting down on articles, prepositions etc ) :) However, I do not think that articles are always needed in the superlatives (or in general) as long as the context makes it clear what is meant.

Regarding "cendien", the simple infinitive would also be correct. There is often more than one way to say things.

Thanks for pointing this out to me.
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Re: Questions About Exercises 18 & 19

PostAuthor: órerámar » Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:40 pm

Huanarmo wrote:In Exercise 18 I have a question about Arwen's tressure. Tuilinde won't be surprised that I picked this one. Apart from complimenting you for such a lovely example, I would like to understand fully the long -é construction in carrea Arwenéva. I understand the possessive case ending, but not why the long -é appears. If you have time I'd be grateful if you could clarify that, please.


You ask the right questions! You have put your finger on a horrible mistake of mine. It should be Arwenwa. I have corrected that. Thank you. Now since this is a mistake by me, I do not know whether your question concerns only this specific -e lengthening or whether you wonder in which cases this would normally happen? Cf. Oroméva.

And leptafinya is a word I will have to work into a piece of writing; there will just have to be a nimble-fingered character among all the inept carpenters.


I like that word "leptafinya" because I wonder whether it could be used in Quenya the way its English or French (and probably of other languages as well) equivalent is used: a) for fine work b) for describing a thieve.

In Exercise 19 I made a couple of mistakes. Once again, if you have time, I'd be grateful for advice about where I've gone wrong. In the first and last 'Translate into Quenya' sentences I went awry. In the first I answered araforna where you have anaforna (for 'the most northern land'), and in the very last sentence I wrote arúmaite where the answers have anúmaite (for 'the clumsiest carpenter').


Nothing wrong with your translation - but with my "lazy" questions/answers. If you use "araforna" it is "the most northern". If you use "anaforna", one would translate "one of the most northern..". I think this is an example where the distinction of "far..." or "far and away..." is not very suitable.

Perhaps I'm being influenced too much by English construction, but both seem to require a strong superlative. To put the question another way, once the most extreme level of intensification is reached, would it be inaccurate to use ar(a)- ?


The last example deals with the quality of skill and here the clumsiest carpenter can of course be "far the clumsiest" or if he really is a catastrophe "far and away the clumsiest". So you can use both.

I shall modify the English text so he fits the Quenya one.
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Re: Questions About Exercises

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:43 pm

Many thanks Órerámar. I'm truly grateful.

Another useful construction you've introduced for me is imb' illi for 'among all'. This is the sort of expression you can find only by being introduced to it in writing - or by reading the Quettaparma from cover to cover - so thanks once more for presenting such rich language in the exercises.

This expression is used in the third sentence of Exercise 19. I had marked it to follow-up on, because I had a separate question but wanted to check first on the rules for numbers and plurals, and also for any special references involving 'two trees'. Knowing the latter to be of such special significance I wanted to do more homework before asking, and having done so I now will: would aldar atta be right for this example, and would the verb then also be marked for plural? In full, I aldar atta arvavanime nár imbi' illi. Incidentally, the poetic reduplication is a fascinating feature, so thank you for introducing that in the lesson.

I hope you won't think this query impertinent or a mark of ingratitude; I couldn't be more appreciative of the lessons and explanations, believe me. I've thought hard about how the sentence is constructed, and the question is purely to understand properly, not to 'nit-pick' as we say. When it comes to the opposite of leptafinya, that's me, as I'm frequently reminded!

Merci d'avance,
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Re: Questions About Exercises

PostAuthor: órerámar » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:37 pm

"Huanarmo"

would aldar atta be right for this example, and would the verb then also be marked for plural? In full, I aldar atta arvavanime nár imbi' illi.


It is a joy to have someone who reads the exercices with so much attention and of course comes across every single error of mine. You are not nit-picking - we are just learning mutually from each other. The dual is really particular - it is not "aldar atta" and "nár", but indeed "alda atta". The error that I make practically every time is that I forget to put the verb into the dual as well and that adjectives take probably the singular.

The attested examples are (VT49:44,45)

nai elen atta siluvat.... The note to this says that numerals follow the noun, except "er" which is indeclinable. The noun is indeclinable in that case before atta, which takes singular inflexion. (only in Old Quenya is dual inflexion preserved). Case endings are added to the numeral. So "of 2 stars" would be "elen atto".

I don't think that we have an example with an adjective, but since the numeral "atta" takes singular inflexion, I suppose that adjectives would be singular too.

The sentence would therefore read: I alda atta arvavanima t imb’illi.

From nelde 3 onwards, the noun is declined and the numeral indeclinable : "eleni nelde" and for the genitive pl. "elenion nelde"

I have corrected the sentence. Thanks again for asking questions and weed out errors.


Merci d'avance,


Tout le plaisir est pour moi. :)
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Re: Questions About Exercises

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:44 am

Hantanyel. That is a gem of an explanation - and very kind of you. Many thanks indeed.
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Re: Questions About Exercise 16

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:06 am

May I return to Exercise 16 for a moment.

findegil wrote:
Huanarmo wrote:And last of all, in the second-last sentence should Rani be Ráni for '(The) wanderers'?

Findegil wrote:
Ráni ought to be plural of ráne, which means 'wandering, straying' [Etym.], not 'wanderer'. Rani could possibly be an irregular plural of Rana (cf. Vali collateral form of Valar), but as such it would most likely mean 'moons', not 'wanderers' generally. For 'wanderer' I would suggest *rando, which probably appears assimilated in Pallando (< *pal(a)-randô 'far-wanderer')


Thank you, *rando is a fine option. May I take this a step further and ask a general question involving the principle of adapting - but not inventing - words. I wonder if a female wanderer could properly be rendered using *randë, in a situation where it was important or necessary to emphasise gender. For example, if a female equivalent of Strider were seen in the Prancing Pony and an inquisitive patron asked 'Who is that travel-stained woman?', could the response be *Randë nás. - 'She is a wanderer.' ?

I understand that attested words are always to be preferred, and that 'swimming between the flags' is recommended to avoid being (linguistically) swept out to sea or savaged by sharks in unpatrolled waters. By inclination, though, I see no difficulty adapting a fully attested word or stem in a way that conforms with the rules and forms of the language.
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Re: Questions About Exercise 16

PostAuthor: findegil » Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:22 pm

Huanarmo wrote:
Findegil wrote:
For 'wanderer' I would suggest *rando, which probably appears assimilated in Pallando (< *pal(a)-randô 'far-wanderer')


Thank you, *rando is a fine option. May I take this a step further and ask a general question involving the principle of adapting - but not inventing - words. I wonder if a female wanderer could properly be rendered using *randë, in a situation where it was important or necessary to emphasise gender. For example, if a female equivalent of Strider were seen in the Prancing Pony and an inquisitive patron asked 'Who is that travel-stained woman?', could the response be *Randë nás. - 'She is a wanderer.' ?


Yes, *rande would certainly be the better choice in that case. Cf. serinde 'broideress' ('broiderer' presumably = *serindo) and melde (not meldo) used by Tolkien referring to his friend and former student Elaine Griffiths.

I understand that attested words are always to be preferred, and that 'swimming between the flags' is recommended to avoid being (linguistically) swept out to sea or savaged by sharks in unpatrolled waters. By inclination, though, I see no difficulty adapting a fully attested word or stem in a way that conforms with the rules and forms of the language.


I find that an excellent description of the happy medium many of us are aiming for.
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