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Dread Hallows

Dread Hallows

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:21 pm

Have no fear, I'm not confusing our forum with Harry Potter!

I do have two questions arising from the Quettaparma Quenyallo, and I would welcome good counsel, please.

The first query is very simple. There are quite a number of entries in Helge Fauskanger's wonderful wordlist which are entirely enclosed in square brackets. I'm unsure precisely what this means for the entries concerned. For example, there's an entry "[alta- (3) vb. "grow" (VT45:13) or "make grow" (VT45:14)]. The entries of this kind that I've noticed do all seem to relate to Vinyar Tengwar, but I'm wondering what this means in terms of the relevant word concerned?

The entry for alta- gave rise to a more complex issue. In the very helpful Quenya Verb Chart presented by ambar-eldaron, alta- is given the sole meaning 'dread'. In the Quettaparma itself aista- (3) has this meaning, though with a note that this has been "possibly obsoleted" by the meaning given for aista- (2) which is 'bless'. The latter sense certainly seems the more likely, given the Quettaparma explanations associated with closely related words for 'holy' (airë) and the verb 'hallow' (#airita-).

Looking at the Quettaparma in the reverse direction, the Quenya word for the verb 'dread' is given as #aista-, but as aista- looks to have been claimed by 'bless' or 'hallow' the question is what to use for 'dread'. Just for the record, in the Quenya Verb Chart, aista- is given the sole meaning 'hallow'. It's quite a maze.

Is this an example where the verbal meaning 'dread' could be ascribed to alta- or aista-, but would need to be footnoted to confirm the writer's intention?

It may be beginner's (bad) luck to have stumbled across this, but having done so I would like to deal with it. My thanks in advance,
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Re: Dread Hallows

PostAuthor: órerámar » Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:26 pm

The first query is very simple. There are quite a number of entries in Helge Fauskanger's wonderful wordlist which are entirely enclosed in square brackets. I'm unsure precisely what this means for the entries concerned. For example, there's an entry "[alta- (3) vb. "grow" (VT45:13) or "make grow" (VT45:14)]. The entries of this kind that I've noticed do all seem to relate to Vinyar Tengwar, but I'm wondering what this means in terms of the relevant word concerned?


The answer to your question is on top of the wordlist, 4 lines under the title !

Brackets indicate forms struck out by Tolkien = square brackets []

Whenever you find some strange signs in the wordlist, have a look there. Words in square brackets are forms Tolkien had cancelled and they are listed because it's always interesting to see the evolution of such words.


The entry for alta- gave rise to a more complex issue. In the very helpful Quenya Verb Chart presented by ambar-eldaron, alta- is given the sole meaning 'dread'.


Since words in brackets are cancelled, there is no reason to have them on a "verb chart" that is supposed to be a "help" for neo-quenya writers. I doubt very much that alta- had the meaning of "dread" at one stage.

In the Quettaparma itself aista- (3) has this meaning, though with a note that this has been "possibly obsoleted" by the meaning given for aista- (2) which is 'bless'. The latter sense certainly seems the more likely, given the Quettaparma explanations associated with closely related words for 'holy' (airë) and the verb 'hallow' (#airita-).


I know, at the beginning it is difficult to read the wordlist. You will see more and more that it is important to get acquainted a little bit with the chronological order of the material in order not to get lost. The list has the following entries for "aista-":

aista (1) adj. "holy" (VT43:37)
#aista- (2) vb. "to bless", verbal stem isolated from the passive participle aistana "blessed" (VT43:30)
aista- (3) vb. "to dread" (GÁYAS, VT45:14; possibly obsoleted by #2 above)
(1) and (2) come from the translations of prayers that are said to date from the 50ties. (3) is from the Etymologies as is indicated by the stem GÁYAS. In the Etymologies which date from the 30ties, the translation was "dread". So if you want to use that word, it is more logic to use it in the sense "to bless" since this is more recent.

Looking at the Quettaparma in the reverse direction, the Quenya word for the verb 'dread' is given as #aista-, but as aista- looks to have been claimed by 'bless' or 'hallow' the question is what to use for 'dread'.


The English to Quenya wordlist is usually not updated as regularly as the other one. So you will not find a great deal of the words you are looking for. Also you have to be more careful when chosing a word as you do not have all the translations of a specific word, each being listed under its English meaning.

For "dread" and for "terrify" you have :

†thorya- (þorya-) vb. “dread, feel fear”; this is Old Quenya (PE17:87, there spelt with the letter þ, not the digraph th)
†thosta- (þosta-) vb. “put to fright, terrify”; this is Old Quenya (PE17:87 there spelt with the letter þ, not the digraph th)


Just for the record, in the Quenya Verb Chart, aista- is given the sole meaning 'hallow'. It's quite a maze.


This chart is not reliable.

Here is the link to a list that may prove helpful to you:

http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/language.htm
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Re: Dread Hallows

PostAuthor: atwe » Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:50 am

BTW 'dread', 'awe', 'hallow' are not that far semantically when it comes to the divine and numinous.
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Re: Dread Hallows

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:16 am

Hantanyel, Órerámar,

It is very kind of you to explain in such depth. I understand much better now and I'm extremely grateful. My sense of dread has passed!

I'm going to explore that link in a moment, but wanted to say heartfelt thanks first.

[ And concerning the square brackets: Perhaps I'm using an older version of the wordlist. I downloaded both the Quenya-English and English-Quenya last year and both are footnoted as being last updated July 5th, 2008. There are only four symbols under the title in my copy: † poetic or archaic, * unattested, ** wrong form, and # attested only in a compound or inflected form. Then begins the listing of abbreviations for the publications, but no square brackets at all. I will check the source again and see if there's something more recent that I should be consulting. And once again, sincere thanks for your guidance. ]

I thank Atwe also, whose post I've just seen. Yes, a 'dread lord', for example, can be one worthy of reverence and awe, even worship; Mandos (Námo) would qualify. It does not necessarily have to mean fearsome or terrifying, unless of a fallen spirit akin to Sauron. There is certainly a link there, and that could well account for the earlier derivations.

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Re: Dread Hallows

PostAuthor: órerámar » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:20 pm

And concerning the square brackets: Perhaps I'm using an older version of the wordlist. I downloaded both the Quenya-English and English-Quenya last year and both are footnoted as being last updated July 5th, 2008.


Last update was on December 22, 2009 for the Quenya - English.

There are only four symbols under the title in my copy: † poetic or archaic, * unattested, ** wrong form, and # attested only in a compound or inflected form.


After #, there is only the sentence "Brackets indicate forms....". I had put the square brackets to show what this sentence refers to.

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