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Stewardship - Theme for Feb - March

Stewardship - Theme for Feb - March

PostAuthor: Tuilinde » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:20 am

Thanks to Huanarmo for suggesting "Stewardship" as a theme for February and March. It has already got me thinking.

So the first question is - Do you think using the word ortírië, which is listed as patronage would in the right context also be understood as stewardship? Helge postulates a verb #ortir to look after, care for, protect, and that's as near to what a steward should do as I can find.

I'm accumulating vocabulary as I work - my usual method - and there is nothing I can find for task or work. At the moment I'm using carda:- deed, and may use móta:- toil, labour n. If anyone has any other suggestions I'd be grateful.
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Re: Stewardship - Theme for Feb - March

PostAuthor: Aran » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:25 pm

So the first question is - Do you think using the word ortírië, which is listed as patronage would in the right context also be understood as stewardship? Helge postulates a verb #ortir to look after, care for, protect, and that's as near to what a steward should do as I can find.

Ortírie is quite literally 'overseeing', *ortirno would be 'overseer'. Such a title is given in many languages and describes what a steward does, so that would work. But if you want to have a word specifically for someone who governs instead of the rightful king, that seems very difficult to derive, since it involves a historical development of a particular word in Middle-earth.
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Re: Stewardship - Theme for Feb - March

PostAuthor: órerámar » Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:00 pm

But if you want to have a word specifically for someone who governs instead of the rightful king, that seems very difficult to derive, since it involves a historical development of a particular word in Middle-earth.


I agree with you. Patronage has not quite the meaning of the tasks of a steward (although he may in his position exercice patronage in favor of some people).

But if we look for some historical base, maybe Karma-kundo could be of help. In PM:260 it is described as Crown-lieutenant or Regent who was virtually king, but acted in the names of Narmakil and Kalmakil, save in matters of war and defence over which he had complete authority. Helm-Guardian seems indeed to indicate that the title is more military than simply refering to someone in charge of government in general (the fact that Tolkien has reconsidered Karma for helm is not important here). This term seems to be coined on the model of Old English meanings of steward : House guardian, Key guardian, Bread guardian. A pity we have no word for key and "bread guardian" (feminin - massanie) has an entirely different meaning.

Mar in Mardil refers to one devoted to the house of the king. So maybe we could have: Marcundo for House guardian
Marda - dwelling, house (PE17:107) : Mardacundo, Marda-Cundo

Turmen Hollondiéva is said to be a former name of Gondor - so one could use turmen - Turmen-Kundo = Realm guardian

So much for the title.

With regard to Stewardship : for -ship we have examples like aranusse - kingship, tárisse - queenship. Therefore, cundosse could go for guardianship.
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Re: Stewardship - Theme for Feb - March

PostAuthor: Aran » Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:34 pm

I like your suggestions. However, if Tolkien used ortírie it doesn't mean that it's the exact equivalent of 'patronage', he rather seems to have used a fitting term from Middle-earth. The Greek version has εὐσπλαγχνία which seems to mean 'grace, compassion', but the Latin translation uses praesidium which is 'defence, protection' (apparently lit. 'sitting before'). The Catholic English version uses 'patronage' and looking at translations into other languages even more different terms come up, like French l'abri de ta miséricorde.

Therefore, cundosse could go for guardianship.

It might be *cundusse if cundo < *kundu, in Etym it's even Q. kundu.
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Re: Stewardship - Theme for Feb - March

PostAuthor: atwe » Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:34 pm

If we are talking specifically about the Steward of Gondor, I feel that the Gondorians would use the word tar somewhere in there, perhaps simply as *tarcundo or maybe *tarandur (although the latter carries a broader meaning). (Sindarin *archon?)
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Re: Stewardship - Theme for Feb - March

PostAuthor: órerámar » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:09 pm

The Catholic English version uses 'patronage' and looking at translations into other languages even more different terms come up, like French l'abri de ta miséricorde.


I was making a joke, refering to patronage (and not to ortirie) in the modern sense "distribution of jobs and favors" that often happens when someone is in a position of power. :)



It might be *cundusse if cundo < *kundu, in Etym it's even Q. kundu.


You are right, if one considers this relationship. PE17:113givea a different stem KON- for prince, leader > condo. Tolkien seems to have considered a stem KUN- but then deleted it (PE:117).
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Re: Stewardship - Theme for Feb - March

PostAuthor: Aran » Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:50 pm

Sindarin *archon?

Sounds Greek to me. ;-)
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Re: Stewardship - Theme for Feb - March

PostAuthor: findegil » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:46 pm

atwe wrote:If we are talking specifically about the Steward of Gondor, I feel that the Gondorians would use the word tar somewhere in there, perhaps simply as *tarcundo or maybe *tarandur (although the latter carries a broader meaning). (Sindarin *archon?)


According to Unfinished Tales ("Cirion and Eorl") the actual Q title was Arandur ('king's servant'). It is stated that the Steward "was never a member of the Royal House"; in contrast perhaps to the office of Carmacundo, which had been held by a prince of the blood.
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Re: Stewardship - Theme for Feb - March

PostAuthor: Tuilinde » Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:58 am

What a wealth of ideas! Thanks for all the suggestions and for all I'm learning in the process. My poem, if it ever gets done, is about the work of the Valar and their stewardship of Arda, and themselves as stewards of Eru. What difference might that make to the choice of words?
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Re: Stewardship - Theme for Feb - March

PostAuthor: órerámar » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:50 pm

Tuilinde wrote:What a wealth of ideas! Thanks for all the suggestions and for all I'm learning in the process. My poem, if it ever gets done, is about the work of the Valar and their stewardship of Arda, and themselves as stewards of Eru. What difference might that make to the choice of words?


Sorry Tuilinde,

I had read that your work was about the Valar, but while looking for solutions, I was carried off the track. However, I think that given the large meaning of "mar" =earth, home, dwelling, you could still use a word like "Mardacundo" or similar and give it the meaning of "Guardian of the world". You could also use the forme "Mardocundo" like in "Mardorunando".

I think you are looking only for a word for "stewardship" and not for the titles of the Valar, since these are given, like hér, heru, or aratar for the High Ones.
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