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Across the sundering sea

Across the sundering sea

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:34 am

I'm a bit stuck finding the right way to render this line in Quenya, and I'd welcome guidance.

It's a line in a little Quenya piece I'm working on. The context is that hope lies in the West, "across the sundering sea".

If possible I'd like to render this using a case-ending rather than prepositions. Can the locative express this meaning fully? I'm wondering whether ëaressë is taking too much poetic licence, or whether that would be read as 'at sea' or 'on the sea'?

If a prepositional structure would be better here, are arta ~ 'across' and or ~ 'over' suitable? That would give arta i [sundering] ëar.

My other missing link is a suitable expression for 'sundering'. I've hunted for synonyms such as 'separating' and 'intervening', but to no avail. If there are any suggestions I'd be grateful.

And one final question. First I have to invoke a Párendili golden rule that no question is too simple, because I suspect this one will be on the borderline. To express a phrase such as 'they see us', is it allowable to use two long pronominal endings in the same word, i.e. cénantelmë [céna + -ntë + -lmë] ? It doesn't create any forbidden clusters, but I'm unsure of it and haven't yet come across an example of this kind.

With thanks in advance,
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Re: Across the sundering sea

PostAuthor: Aran » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:41 pm

If possible I'd like to render this using a case-ending rather than prepositions. Can the locative express this meaning fully? I'm wondering whether ëaressë is taking too much poetic licence, or whether that would be read as 'at sea' or 'on the sea'?

It would indeed place the hope into or on top of the sea. 'Across the sea' means 'beyond the sea' or 'on the other side of the sea' and Tolkien actually gives this construction in Quenya a lot of thought in PE17:65. He arrives at the prepositions and haila = palla with sample phrases caitas lá/palla i sír 'it is (far) beyond the river' (static position) and lendes lann'/pallan(na) i sír 'he came (to a point) (far) beyond the river' (motion). I'm not sure whether this was intended to replace pella 'beyond' in Namárie (of course you could use that too).

And one final question. First I have to invoke a Párendili golden rule that no question is too simple, because I suspect this one will be on the borderline. To express a phrase such as 'they see us', is it allowable to use two long pronominal endings in the same word, i.e. cénantelmë [céna + -ntë + -lmë] ? It doesn't create any forbidden clusters, but I'm unsure of it and haven't yet come across an example of this kind.

In 'they see us' one pronoun is nominative and the other one accusative. We see that short suffixes are used for accusative pronouns, as in utúvie-nye-s. But it seems that there are no short pronouns in the 1st person plural, they are always some kind of modification of me (excl.) or we (incl.). I think it might be possible to use me, we as accusative suffixed pronouns, *cénanteme, *cénanteve (one might compare álamë tulya 'don't lead us'), but I would rather prefer a separate pronoun - *mé/vé cénante.
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Re: Across the sundering sea

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:18 am

Hantanyel, Aran, that helps on both counts.

Finding the right way to express the 1st person plural in accusative has puzzled me, so I'm very grateful for that advice.

Using pella will suit very well. Following the peerless example of Andúnë pella, I think I can now use Alatairë pella for 'beyond the Great Sea'. This is perhaps even better, as it makes clear which sundering sea lies in between.

Nai elen caluva tielyanna.
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Re: Across the sundering sea

PostAuthor: Tuilinde » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:17 am

Very belatedly, here are a couple of other thoughts on your questions.

Another word for beyond is han. It is to be found in one of the versions of The Lord's Prayer, which I think you downloaded. You will find I used it in the poem Faramir. It is very useful to have it as an option, particularly if what you are writing depends on syllable counting. Ambela from PE17 means far away beyond which would be more appropriate for a sea than a word you might use for beyond a river or hill. It also has the advantage of three syllables should you be needing them! Whereas pella is always used after the noun, han is used before it.
It will pay you to use Edit - Find on Helge's list, and go through all the options for beyond. What is interesting and instructive is to take note of where the different words come from - Monsters & Critics; Firiel's Song; The Lord's Prayer; PE 17. That information should always be considered when choosing a word.

Long ago, one of the first things I ever tried was to translate Galadriel's I Sang of Leaves. In that I made use of a piece of Neo-Quenya devised by Helge. He had formed a verb *cilta - to separate, divide; so I used *ciltala for Sundering (present active participle). This gave me Ciltala Eär.

I hope that was some belated use - and that I wasn't talking down to you!!
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Re: Across the sundering sea

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:57 am

Not at all! I'm constantly grateful for the time and trouble so many gifted people are willing to take - and for their wise words as well.

It is not so long ago that I believed the only Eldarin material available was to be found in Tolkien's own works - and wished there was more of it, without knowing where to look.

Be assured you cannot underestimate my lack of knowledge about where to find good material, nor overestimate my gratitude.

[I'm beginning to sound like Bilbo. So, like the good hobbit, I shall now disappear.]
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