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Párendili • View topic - Quettaparma Quenyallo question
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Quettaparma Quenyallo question

Quettaparma Quenyallo question

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:54 am

Aiya Párendili,

I have a question about ablative case endings. If anyone can shed some light on this, I'd appreciate it.

In Helge Fauskanger's Quettaparma Quenyallo - 'Quenya Wordlist', an ablative case ending - Quenyallo - is used. Now I would have been tempted to use the genitive case ending Quenyo - 'of Quenya' rather the ablative 'from Quenya', though I can see that both are suitable.

What prompts my question is an observation in chapter 14 of Thorsten Renk's coursebook about the relationship between genitive -o and ablative -llo: "both can denote origin, but the ablative usually refers to spatial origin whereas the genitive is more abstract". In the example above, the wordlist seems to me more generically 'of Quenya' than spatially derived from it, so I'm just curious about ablative usage, which perhaps has wider application than I've understood so far.

Case ending construction is a new art for me, so if anyone has words of advice I'd be grateful.

Namárië
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Re: Quettaparma Quenyallo question

PostAuthor: Tuilinde » Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:25 am

Hi, Paul,

I think it is Quenyallo because it is translating words FROM Quenya into English. If you look at his other list I think you will find it is Quenyanna, because that list is from English INTO Quenya. So in some sense there is a movement to or from. If it were a dictionary entirely in Quenya, with words and definitions in Quenya, then you would use the Genitive. I'm supposing that Helge wanted to be able to differentiate the two lists, which he couldn't do with the Genitive.
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Re: Quettaparma Quenyallo question

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:38 am

Hantanyel, Tuilinde.

That helps explain it, thanks.

I came across another example that reinforces the same usage, this time in Thorsten Renk's coursebook: Hendu Hísiello cénat maica na ilya lómin ~ 'Hisiel's eyes are looking sharply to every shadow'. Clearly the ablative can be used in this broader sense, even if the translated meaning in English is closer to 'of' than 'from', so I'll keep this in mind.

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Re: Quettaparma Quenyallo question

PostAuthor: Aran » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:48 pm

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Re: Quettaparma Quenyallo question

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:12 pm

Hantanyel, Aran.

That does help. I'll remember now that the ablative marks 'direction from' in a broad sense.

Case-endings are a feature I haven't encountered since an all-too-brief acquaintance with Latin at school. It may have helped if I'd persisted with it, but it certainly wasn't taught in a way that had the delightful appeal of Quenya. As I recall it gave rise to more terror than joy!

Increasingly I'm learning to keep an open mind and look out for alternative usages and variants. That's what makes the language so rich. And I will remember now that a word such as Hísiel can indeed form the genitive with a double 'l'.

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Re: Quettaparma Quenyallo question

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:37 am

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Re: Quettaparma Quenyallo question

PostAuthor: órerámar » Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:11 pm

Hy Huanarmo,

Sorry to temper your enthousiasme about the trump card (cards are tricky!) - we have here again the genitive as explained by Aran with the example of Míriello. Have a look at the Quettaparma, you will find it under Altariel (-iel when suffixed becomes -iell..)

Márienna

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Re: Quettaparma Quenyallo question

PostAuthor: Aran » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:08 pm

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Re: Quettaparma Quenyallo question

PostAuthor: Huanarmo » Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:14 pm

Thanks, Aran and Órerámar,

I'm grateful for your explanations, and I've now grasped the message about -llo endings.

Rules are useful, but keeping a flexible approach is more valuable. The underlying lesson is to learn Quenya as Quenya, not through a template of other tongues. And that's a good lesson to learn.

I'm gleaning plenty from the practice exercises Tuilinde has kindly put on the site. One little example was employing the dual form for 'sister ships' ~ ciryat. Aside from the exercise in translation, what mattered more was understanding why the dual comes into play: a small step for me, and maybe quite obvious to experienced students of the tongue, but I hope it's a sign of beginning to grasp some fundamentals.

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