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Siniath - Sinyar

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Siniath - Sinyar

PostAuthor: órerámar » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:20 pm

We do not really need a translation, the word is already more or less there. Siniath is found in the Etymologies (LR:385) under the stem SI-which has the basic meaning of "this, here, now" and gives in Q "sí, sin = now; sinya = new N sein (pl. sîn) new; siniath news, tidings; sinnarn novel tale.

So we could have Sinyar for News.

On the other hand, Vinyar for News (see Vinyar Tengwar = News Letters) is in use since 1988 (although it appears from the first issues of VT, that the name did not make the unanimity). I must say I fail to understand why they used vinya and not sinya, since a word on this base existed in N. Maybe simply because vinya was more frequently attested (see the compounds with vinya).

As the different gloses of vinya show, its meaning has a connotation of "young, fresh" like in many Indo-European Languages.*

Sinya "new" has more the meaning of actuality, as its stem SI- now indicates. In Indo-European Languages we find the same relationship. Now is also connected to new.*

For "News" Sinyar seems to me more fitting than Vinyar. (Especially in our fast living time, were the "freshness" of the news lasts hardly a day. - I know, jokes are not a good justification.)

*Carl Darling Buck "A dictionary of selected synonyms in the principal Indo-European languages" /Semantic fields 14.13 new and 14.18 now.
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Re: Siniath - Sinyar

PostAuthor: Elros » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:20 pm

órerámar wrote:On the other hand, Vinyar for News (see Vinyar Tengwar = News Letters) is in use since 1988 (although it appears from the first issues of VT, that the name did not make the unanimity). I must say I fail to understand why they used vinya and not sinya, since a word on this base existed in N. Maybe simply because vinya was more frequently attested (see the compounds with vinya).


I assume they chose vinya before sinya because the former was known from The Silmarillion, whereas the latter was found only in the Etymologies. Indeed it does not seem like an unreasonable assumption that vinya “replaced” sinya as the word for ‘new’. I cannot recall that sinya is found in any source that is later than Etym.

Regarding the translation “News Letters”, I strongly suspect that this is a retro-construction. One of the early issues actually has the title Vinye Tengwar ‘New Letters’ (in tengwar on the cover).
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Re: Siniath - Sinyar

PostAuthor: órerámar » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:45 pm

Elros wrote:
órerámar wrote:

Regarding the translation “News Letters”, I strongly suspect that this is a retro-construction. One of the early issues actually has the title Vinye Tengwar ‘New Letters’ (in tengwar on the cover).


That's right, on VT4. In number 2 there were a few funny suggestions from Bill Weldon. I like particularly : "speculation commerce" which he translated as "intyamankale". Speculation commerce is just great :D
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Re: Siniath - Sinyar

PostAuthor: Eryniel » Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:40 pm

If you will forgive a total newbie for trying ....

I was fiddling with Helges wordlist yesterday and I happend to look at the forum roundabout the same time, so just for fun I looked up some words and came up with Vinquenta.

I might be completely off, but Vin - (from vinya (1) adj. "young" (VT46:22, VT47:26, PE17:191) or "new", see Vincarma - new-made) and quenta (tale, account) might form this compound.

Now I have no idea if it would be at all usable, but I had fun looking it up ;-)
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Re: Siniath - Sinyar

PostAuthor: findegil » Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:24 am

Elros wrote:
órerámar wrote:On the other hand, Vinyar for News (see Vinyar Tengwar = News Letters) is in
use since 1988 (although it appears from the first issues of VT, that the
name did not make the unanimity). I must say I fail to understand why they
used vinya and not sinya, since a word on this base existed in N. Maybe
simply because vinya was more frequently attested (see the compounds with
vinya).


I assume they chose vinya before sinya because the former was
known from The Silmarillion, whereas the latter was found only in the
Etymologies. Indeed it does not seem like an unreasonable assumption that
vinya “replaced” sinya as the word for ‘new’. I cannot recall
that sinya is found in any source that is later than Etym.


Actually, vinya 'young' occurs already in "The Fall of Númenor" as a name
of the land of gift. But then in the Etymologies vinya, derived from
WIN(D)-, received the meanings 'evening' and 'pale blue' , which was probably
the reason why sinya was introduced. The root WIN(D)- was soon discarded,
however, and perhaps sinya was equally ephemeral, as vinya is back in
LOTR-style Quenya with the meaning 'young, new'. On the other hand, vinya
and sinya may very plausibly have continued to coexist as quasi-synonyms
(like e.g. English "new" and "recent"). And if we reject sinya, consistency
demands that we must do without the very useful siniath as well, which I
think most of us would regret.

Elros wrote:Regarding the translation “News Letters”, I strongly suspect that this is a
retro-construction. One of the early issues actually has the title Vinye
Tengwar
‘New Letters’ (in tengwar on the cover).


But in the very first issue, the editor Jorge Quiñonez explains that the
title is a calque on the English "newsletter(s)", so the interpretation can
hardly be seen as an afterthought.
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Re: Siniath - Sinyar

PostAuthor: Elros » Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:59 am

findegil wrote:Actually, vinya 'young' occurs already in "The Fall of Númenor" as a name
of the land of gift. But then in the Etymologies vinya, derived from
WIN(D)-, received the meanings 'evening' and 'pale blue' , which was probably
the reason why sinya was introduced. The root WIN(D)- was soon discarded,
however, and perhaps sinya was equally ephemeral, as vinya is back in
LOTR-style Quenya with the meaning 'young, new'. On the other hand, vinya
and sinya may very plausibly have continued to coexist as quasi-synonyms
(like e.g. English "new" and "recent"). And if we reject sinya, consistency
demands that we must do without the very useful siniath as well, which I
think most of us would regret.


I agree. Also, more synonyms only helps enriching the language. To the editors of Vinyar Tengwar back in 1988 however, vinya might have appeared to supercede sinya, especially if we consider how the understanding of Tolkien’s languages was at the time.

Regarding the topic of this thread: if I were to choose a source from which to derive a word for "news", I would select vinya since this word is more well-known and well-attested than sinya.

findegil wrote:
Elros wrote:Regarding the translation “News Letters”, I strongly suspect that this is a
retro-construction. One of the early issues actually has the title Vinye
Tengwar
‘New Letters’ (in tengwar on the cover).


But in the very first issue, the editor Jorge Quiñonez explains that the
title is a calque on the English "newsletter(s)", so the interpretation can
hardly be seen as an afterthought.


Ah! My mistake. That’s what I get when I write from the office, away from my bookshelves...
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Re: Siniath - Sinyar

PostAuthor: Eryniel » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:56 pm

May I - even if I cannot contribute to the topic - say that the Quenya part of the Headline of this board is still empty? I would love to see what you guys come up with to actually use :)
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Re: Siniath - Sinyar

PostAuthor: Aran » Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:46 pm

The interesting part about siniath is that it actually seems to be a class plural. Quenya has no class plural, but maybe one could use a collective suffix instead of an ordinary plural, e.g. *sinyasse, *sinie (as in karpasse, olassie).
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Re: Siniath - Sinyar

PostAuthor: órerámar » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:46 pm

Aran wrote:The interesting part about siniath is that it actually seems to be a class plural. Quenya has no class plural, but maybe one could use a collective suffix instead of an ordinary plural, e.g. *sinyasse, *sinie (as in karpasse, olassie).


I like your idea. My preference would go to "sinyasse". The suffixe -sse has various meanings "-ship, -ness" or as you indicate in karpasse "a system of something". Even someone who does not make your analysis will at least recognise the word as "newness" which is not too bad and it makes a nice couple with sinath. Sinie could maybe mistaken as a typo for sinye.
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Re: Siniath - Sinyar

PostAuthor: findegil » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:17 am

Aran wrote:The interesting part about siniath is that it actually seems to be a class plural. Quenya has no class plural, but maybe one could use a collective suffix instead of an ordinary plural, e.g. *sinyasse, *sinie (as in karpasse, olassie).


In Quenya the general plural performs the functions of the Sindarin group/class plural, cf. Eldar -- Eledhrim, elenion (ancalima) -- (aglar) elenath. So, as órerámar wrote when starting this thread, we do not really need a neologism here: sinyar will do the job perfectly well.

But a collective noun formed from sinya(r) could perhaps come in handy as a word for 'newsletter' or 'bulletin'. If it is to be modelled on olassie 'collection of leaves', I think the prefix o- (= Latin con-, German ge-) should be kept, thus *osinie 'collection of news' rather than *sinie ''newness, recency'.
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