Pedin Edhellen & Quetin i Lambe Eldaiva

[Tuilinde]

It seems that we're running into more problems with our Exercises in both Sindarin and Quenya. I thought this might happen eventually, but when the Forum was created I wanted to get things moving. Perhaps it will help if I set out the reasons why I chose to use these resources in the first place and then everyone can chip in with their alternative ideas.

Why I Chose To Use Thorsten's Courses?

1 We have beginners joining us from time to time who would possibly find Helge's Quenya Course much too technical.
2 His courses are easy to obtain - in book form if one wants, or in downloads. I have the books and write in them, which I find most helpful.
3 Helge has no Course for Sindarin, and making one from all the variety of essays on his site would be complicated.
4 As yet Helge has still not updated his Course since VT49 & PE17 came out and changed our understanding of much vocabulary and various linguistic concepts.
5 Despite some of his editorial choices Thorsten revises his work every time significant new material is published.

Why Thorsten's Courses Are Unsatisfactory

1 He makes some odd editorial choices - especially in the difficult area of Pronominal Suffixes
2 Sometimes his explanations are too simple and unclear.
3 He makes one or two dubious leaps of imagination - although he always 'greys' them so that one can tell that's what they are.

What Can We Do?

1 Does anyone know of a good alternative?
2 Can we write a longer explanatory piece at the beginning of each set of Exercises - explaining (tactfully) that Thorsten's choices are not always universally accepted.
3 Could we provide some alternative Exercises just on the problematic areas of pronouns, and let people choose which ones to learn and use?

I would be extremely glad if we can find a way around this problem. I knew it would be a problem, but couldn't see a way around it when we began. Do please chip in with ideas, even of the simplest kind.

And does anyone know when or if Helge will complete his revision of his Quenya Course?

[Eryniel]

Suilad Tuilinde,

not that I have enough experience to make an informed choice but I can think of at least one path that we could take:

For the beginners I would recommend leaving the excercises following Pedin Edhellen, but we could elaborate with a seperate post with explanation and different excercise for advanced users of Sindarin where we find things we feel we cannot agree with.
We could amend the introduction to include this too.

[Tuilinde]

That sounds perfectly reasonable - they could be labelled Level 2, Alternative Exercises or something - whatever will just make it clear that they give some different choices.

I hope it would not be too much work.

Perhaps Órerámar and Findegil would help me to create the necessary Quenya ones.

[findegil]

Aiya Tuilinde,
I fear that your very kind and encouraging words on my posting here have made me overshoot the mark. Instead of being helpful I may have caused you and Eryniel unwanted trouble. I'm truly sorry for any nuisance.

I have great respect for Thorsten Renk as an Elvish scholar and have benefited a lot from the essays in his Tengwesta Eldalambion. And his courses are no doubt the best available on the net, but in my (perhaps not sufficiently humble) opinion they use too many reconstructions. Especially, a course for beginners should keep closer to attested material and patterns, as I see it.

So completing the Exercises with additional posts where the "Renkianisms" are pointed out seems to me an excellent idea.

Suilad ammilui,